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God vs science, or professor vs student?; A reply to a thread in the "Bible Lessons-section"
Topic Started: 28 Feb 2010, 11:33 AM (3,576 Views)
Concolor
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Barabbas
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I still don't see anything in the Bible about whether the second son did it out of love or for entitlement.
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Luemas
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We're talking about the second prodigal son right, squandered his inheritance on booze and women?

Yeah.
He wanted money. That's why he took his inheritance, and went back, because he had nowhere else to go and figured being a servant for his father was better then eating pig food.
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conradw
Goliath
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no, i think we're talking about the other son - the one that stayed home.
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Yeah, that's him. But thanks for backing up my interpretation Luemas.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Luemas
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Actually, from my memory, the second son was angry with his father, and his brother, because he saw that he was loyal to his father, and worked for him, and got nothing.
So... I dunno.
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conradw
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But doesn't the father say "Everything I have is yours, but I my son used to be lost and now is found - of course I'm happy!" or something to that effect
Edited by conradw, 30 Apr 2010, 05:08 PM.
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Luemas
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HERE! I'll be nice and give you guys the text:

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

Now, it's all there, and you can debate to kingdom come.
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conradw
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yeah so there was no second prodigal son. there was only one prodigal son...
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Thanx Lue :)

So the younger son got his inheritance before he went out.

Also, I find it interesting to see the father has the audacity to lie to his older son straight to his face. If everything he has also belongs to the older son, then the older son would have been allowed to have the goat when he asked for it.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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but he didnt ask for it ! it was there all the time the fat goat didnt have to be earnt by the son that stayed it was his already !!!
also the second son (the one who stayed home) had the audacity to be ANGRY and refuse to go into the feast.
So was he obediant thru love ? was he obediant for favour? was he just waiting for the moment to say you owe me?

the brother coming to his senses and receiving mercy is a good thing
how many ppl get happy about undeserved GRACE ? not this son-this son gets ANGRY and disobedient and SHOWS HIS TRUE COLORS
crucify him !! give the whoremunger what he deserves !! is that your answer to the fathers show of unmerited Mercy????

Now both sons fell to temptation-
the first to the flesh and the second to Pride

at the end its all about whats in the heart-you can work away doing all the right "things" but fail at keeping your heart right much like the second son







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Concolor
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Barabbas
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No, the father showing mercy and forgiveness is a good thing. The father favoring the son who left him is unfair. This father is simply not just.

Also "Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends." It sounds most reasonable to me to interpret the son as pointing to an incident where he had asked for a goat to celebrate with his friends. Why else would he mention the goat, why else would he mention celebrating with his friends?

A just father would have made a feast for BOTH his sons, and praised his oldest son just as much as the youngest.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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who said lifes fair Concolor ?
Many,many things "appear" or are "unjust" in this life so how are you gonna live it? ARE YOU GOING TO REJECT THE REDEEMED SON WHO WAS LOST AND NOW IS FOUND?

and so even though forgiveness and mercy are good they are cancelled out if things dont go ur way or you perceive an injustice or you beleive you dont receive what YOU DESERVE.....

see my first reaction many many years ago to this scripture was the same as yours-it did not compute with me and i really didnt understand it-its not surprising that someone with unbeleif in the Christian Gospel might see it this way- :ermm:

We dont know what the father had planned to say inside the feast-the whole village was there so he just might of praised them BOTH who knows?

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conradw
Goliath
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Concolor, maybe you're over thinking this? It is, after all, a metaphor.

And by that I don't mean the "its all a bit metaphorical really." I mean THIS is a metaphor. That's what parables are.
Edited by conradw, 2 May 2010, 06:42 PM.
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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ARAZEC
 
who said lifes fair Concolor ?
No one did. I just assumed that the parable is trying to give an example of a just and good act. And I find it amazing that they managed to mess up the justice-part.
ARAZEC
 
ARE YOU GOING TO REJECT THE REDEEMED SON WHO WAS LOST AND NOW IS FOUND?
Nope. But I'm not gonna treat him any better than my other son either. You can actually forgive someone without pouring feasts all over them right in front of their siblings who's never been celebrated their entire life.
ARAZEC
 
and so even though forgiveness and mercy are good they are cancelled out if things dont go ur way or you perceive an injustice or you beleive you dont receive what YOU DESERVE.....
I never said the goodness of his forgiveness was cancelled out. I just pointed out that I think he could have solved the situation more justly, while still being good and merciful. That would go from good to better, and who wouldn't want that?
ARAZEC
 
We dont know what the father had planned to say inside the feast-the whole village was there so he just might of praised them BOTH who knows?
And so we return to the question of how useful a parable is for teaching something. You and I read it completely differently, and the end conclusion is: "Who knows?" Who knows what was in the heart of the older son, or the younger son, or the father. We are left to imagine this on our own, and the morale of the story will alter completely depending on what we choose.

@conradw: Yes it is a metaphor. But it is a poor one, and I don't see why it is not a better metaphor when that could have been done so easily.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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Concolor
2 May 2010, 12:55 PM
No, the father showing mercy and forgiveness is a good thing. The father favoring the son who left him is unfair. This father is simply not just.

Also "Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends." It sounds most reasonable to me to interpret the son as pointing to an incident where he had asked for a goat to celebrate with his friends. Why else would he mention the goat, why else would he mention celebrating with his friends?

A just father would have made a feast for BOTH his sons, and praised his oldest son just as much as the youngest.
Supposing that there was an incident where the older brother had asked for a goat is speculation. The parable does not mention any such incident, and there is no real basis for supposing there was. He says "You never gave me..." not "You denied me..." He brings up the goat because his father has just spontaneously killed the fatted calf in celebration of his younger son's return, whereas he has never celebrated the older son's faithfulness.

But note that the father does not deny his son anything. His elder son is out working in the fields when his younger brother returns, that's why he's not at the party to begin with. But when he arrives, everyone tries to get him to come inside and join the party. His failure to join in is his own call, not the father's. The elder son may not have been given a goat, but that is probably because he never asked for one (thought that too is speculation).

The father is being perfectly honest when he says that all he has is the older son's. What the older son doesn't like is that the younger (prodigal) son shares the exact same privilege after having grossly insulted and deserted his father for so long. It's an understandable grudge, but it essentially translates into the son being angry at his father's forgiveness.

The parable relates to another one where a landowner pays all his men the same amount of money regardless of how much they worked. The men who worked longer claim this is unfair, but the employer points out that he paid them exactly what they had agreed on--neither more nor less--so they have not been wronged. The fact that the employer chose to pay the others extra is his own business, he can be generous if he wants to be.

Both parables explain one of the dilemna's of God's "free grace" policy--it's not dependent on length of service. It doesn't matter if you're Saint Peter or the thief on the cross, you receive the same reward--forgiveness of sins and eternal life (when you think about it, there's no real way to up that anyway).

Is it "fair?" Well, technically no. "Fair" would be God burning the whole world in fire and brimstone. C.S Lewis says in Till We Have Faces. "Are not the gods fair?" "Oh no child. What would we do if they were?" God's plan is not really fair, it's forgiveness. It's his own grace, if he gives more to those who need it, that's entirely his own affair.

And really, if you talk to those who have been saved later in life, their greatest regret is that they weren't saved sooner. God's service is its own reward, in many ways.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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