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The world is getting ...
Better 3 (23.1%)
Worse 8 (61.5%)
Staying the same 2 (15.4%)
Total Votes: 13
Is the world getting better or worse?
Topic Started: 8 May 2010, 11:53 AM (1,692 Views)
conradw
Goliath
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So guys, After Vampira made a very good point about us going off topic, I decided to make a new topic.

What do you think. Is the world getting better or worse? Please qualify your answer
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Luemas
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DELICIOUS!
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Well, there are many ways to look at this.
I guess it depends on your perspective.
I would say worse, because, although people are trying to do stuff to help people. I.E. The charities for children in Africa, the numerous groups for justice in foreign nations where people trafficking in common place and accepted.

I think of a line Isaac Asimov once said. I believe, that at least in America, we are stagnating. There are many who do try and help the needy, because they have been so obviously overblessed. But really, in my perspective, as a culture, we're losing our status as world power. We still are for the time being, but, we have the 16th highest education rate. When education goes down, learning goes down, and with that, the desire to learn. (Obviously.) With this desire to learn, people become content to let other people in power do things for them, be it in the form of totalitarian government, or the middle aged man who still lives in his parent's basement. And in all of us, is that concept, that desire. There are a few, good people, who are willing to stand up and make the tough decisions. Namely, those in politics or high up in businesses. I realize now, that we can be angry at them all day long, but they have the toughest job of all. They have to make the decisions that affect millions and millions of people.
But, to make a long story short. There are less good people in this world, and more people who let the good people do everything.
And these good people get power, and power corrupts. Until there are no good people left.

Now that may be a somewhat nihilistic view, or maybe my own attempt at Psychohistory, but hey, cynicism is fun.
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably.
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conradw
Goliath
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That is an interesting perspective. Can I assume that social security and things like that are part of the problem then?

The employment rate in America is increasing (although the latest recession hasn't helped my argument). I don't think people are as lazy it sounds like you're suggesting they are. Nor do I think that leaders of politics and business are as awesome as you seem to suggest - just because they're willing to make the decisions doesn't mean they're good.

You're absolutely right about the value of education. But what I don't quite understand is this. American schools are being out-performed in a number of different measures, but at the same time the US has most of the best universities in the world...

I know I bang on and on about inequality, but what you're talking about sounds entirely like a society where the powerful are very powerful and everyone else is powerless - or else feels that way

Also, I don't think the Americans need to be insecure about not being a world power any more. I'm from the UK. We used to own a quarter of the world, now we don't even own all of Ireland. It doesn't mean that people are worse off for it - in fact I think in most cases, they're better off.
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Babaylan
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Horned Rogue
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DARN!
i cant even vote :-/

i dont even know how to type what is on my mind (im serious!)
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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In this question, there is one assumption that is easily made, which I disagree with (no one has openly said they have made this assumption, I'm just warning against it): It is the assumption that the world is steadily and uniformly moving in one defined direction, be it better or worse. In my opinion it is impossible to say simply and absolutely that "the world is getting better" or "the world is getting worse".

Why?

For one thing, change often happen in waves with progression followed by reaktionism. Sometimes things go better, and then they take a turn for the worse, followed by betterment etc.
Secondly, sometimes things can get better in one part of the world, and worse in another.
Thirdly, "Better" and "Worse" are relative terms. I count the growing secularization of developed societies as "better", while others may count the progression of missionary efforts in the third world as "better".
Forthly, the views on "better/worse" also changes over time together with society. In old times having lots of slaves was great, now it's horrible. Judging by modern standards the slavery-situation has vastly improved, but by those days-standards we've lost all of the slave-workforce and have to pay for even the most mundane tasks to be done (or do them ourselves).


What I do think quite clearly, is that if we look at the last thousands of years (which are the ones we know the most about), it has definitely NOT been a steadily downward spiral. In terms of personal safety, life expectancy, illness, legal protection, liberty, perspectives on sustainability and the environment, human rights, control over your life, public welfare systems, and probably in many other areas I can only see that the overall change has been an improvement.

I agree that the improvement has in a certain respect not happened so much at the level of each individual human. This makes sense biologically, as one would not expect dramatic changes in our mental or emotional capabilities over a span of such few generations. The change has been on the level of culture and society, how individuals interact, how systems have been constructed to preserve what is good and reduce what is bad, how education and attitudes focus on bringing out the best in each individual and to control what is lesser beneficial in a peaceful society.

In short i choose "better", because If I was to be teleported into any time of human history, into a random role in a random layer of society, then or present time is the time where I feel the most secure that I would live a good life.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Deleted User
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not been a downward spiral ?

personal safety ?-yeh now you can have your safety compromised in the privacey of your own home

life expectancy ?- unless you are an unborn child in which case you lose your right to expect a life at all

illness ? yeah unless u are one of the millions still dying of preventable diseases like Malaria

legal protection ? unless you are lucky enough to reach a settlement before your own legal costs outweigh any legal protection you may have had to begin with

liberty ? yeah when it comes to refer to youth job prospects i have to agree - "Not employed, occupied, or in use"

perspectives on sustainability and the environment ? yeah come and sunbake in Australia :D :D we might have better "perspectives" but we create newer and more catastrophic ways of destroying the enviorment thru trade embargos than realising the numbers up on using styrofoam :blink:

human rights ? yeah seen the stats on human trafficking?


control over your life ? ha,ha,ha tell that to the advertising agencies & production companies mate twiright?

public welfare systems? yeah if you havnt been to India you can always watch Slumdog millionaire

lets be real here-ppl stuck on twinkies while generations of civil war produce limbless parents and child soldiers.....



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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC: Saying something has gotten "better" or "worse" actually involves comparing the present situation with the previous situation.

No one suggests that everything is perfect right now. but "not being perfect" does not mean "has gotten worse". Let me give some examples:

personal safety - are you honestly suggesting that people were never breaking into houses two hundred years ago?

Life expectancy - In viking Norway it was common to put unwanted babies into the forest to die. Was that really much better than the present situation?

illness - People still die from malaria, but FEWER than before. This is the definition of an improvement.

legal protection - Because being outlawed was better than reaching a settlement?

human rights - Trafficking was not invented three years ago. My hair is brown (not blonde) because my forefathers had a practice of taking home sex-slaves when they were pillaging around Europe (which also makes my ancestors sex-slaves).

control over your life - I've never seen nor read Twilight. Being influenced by advertisement does not mean you are controlled in the same way that a servant used to be borne into a life of servitude.

Public welfare systems - So you didn't read my post were I explained that not everything improves equally everywhere. More countries do have welfare-systems today than two hundred years ago.
ARAZEC
 
lets be real here-ppl stuck on twinkies while generations of civil war produce limbless parents and child soldiers....
Have you ever read the old testament? Do you really think eating twinkies and civil wars is worse than civil wars and plague?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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personal safety - are you honestly suggesting that people were never breaking into houses two hundred years ago? no they are now so wheres the improvement?

Life expectancy - In viking Norway it was common to put unwanted babies into the forest to die. Was that really much better than the present situation?
No because i suspect it was the sick put out to die-not the result of a one night stand and at least they had a chance-a slim one but still hope.

illness - People still die from malaria, but FEWER than before. This is the definition of an improvement.
Not really because the means to prevent it exsists-unlike before- however we dont want to pay for it instead the diseases that come from overeating kill in the developed world -is that an improvement? i call that substitution with greed.

legal protection - Because being outlawed was better than reaching a settlement? no because the exsistence of the law does not mean the lessor resoursed get protection from the law-therefor where is the improvement? i say the need for more law is on account of more lawlessness.....and new crimes hardly an improvement

human rights - Trafficking was not invented three years ago. My hair is brown (not blonde) because my forefathers had a practice of taking home sex-slaves when they were pillaging around Europe (which also makes my ancestors sex-slaves). Great so wheres the improvment-such a long history and all?

control over your life - I've never seen nor read Twilight. Being influenced by advertisement does not mean you are controlled in the same way that a servant used to be borne into a life of servitude.
ohhhh really and how is that? you cant escape and live freely now can you? look at where your clothes and most of the worlds clothes are made-and look how....

Public welfare systems - So you didn't read my post were I explained that not everything improves equally everywhere. More countries do have welfare-systems today than two hundred years ago.
and why is that so? could it be that there was no need for public welfare systems because we all tended gardens and worked ? without hormones in our chickens and nuclear dust in our eyes?

Have you ever read the old testament? in its entirety several times have you? or have you just quoted bits that have no relevance to content,historical culture and read in conjunction with purpose ?
so you can say-"they stoned ppl in the bible" therefor the bible is BAD/WRONG/WHATEVER even tho Jesus said "let him without sin cast the first stone" huh huh ?










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conradw
Goliath
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Well isn't that a good example. In the old testament times we killed people for the slightest infraction. When Jesus came along we stopped doing it so much. Now, most countries don't use capital punishment. Jesus told us to stop executing people, and as time has gone on, we've come closer and to completely abolishing it.

@Concolor, you're absolutely right about progress/regress not being uniform over time or place. But that was what I was getting at - your personal opinion.
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well its only a good example if you forget my world begins with Jesus :P


Quote:
 
Now, most countries don't use capital punishment

they use food and hormones in chicken and dexamphetamine and ritalin and sodium lauryl sulfate and monosodium glutamite and carcigenic baby formula ajax but at least they dont discriminate.......
and ciggarettes with 1000's of poisons that are legal as long as they can tax them for suposedly paying for public hospitals which reject ppl who cant afford them but dont exsist in some countries while in others a human liver can be stolen with the help of a packet of rowies made by some 7 year old whose parents were abducted from their cocoa farm so has to work 16hours 7 days a week-meanwhile you and i can eat twinkies while simulating massacares collectively on the net while your younger siblings get speech impediments cause no one ever talks to them cause your parents work to pay for your future which will be a morgage lasting for 4 generations......... which in the meantime you will need an organ transplant because you over eat and dont move but can only afford one from Bangcok.....which you receive fresh and still beating.
and another one bites the dust
but with all the progress weve made and how clever we are we cant work our how to sustain peace
how to control our Greed or how to keep ppl from starving....these things havnt gone away theyve just morphed
dont be fooled

they just kill ya more sloqwly now unless it cant be done on the sly
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conradw
Goliath
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dexamphetamine in chicken food? now I have to see that!

I'm sorry, but the lack of punctuation meant that was the only part of your statement i could understand
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:
Quote:
 
but with all the progress weve made and how clever we are we cant work our how to sustain peace
You see, this is where our perspectives on discourse clearly differ. If I wanted to make the argument that society was unambiguously and uniformly going downhill since the dawn of time, I would not attempt to strengthen my case by using the phrase, "with all the progress we've made", as this could hardly be interpreted as anything other than that we have made progress.

In Norway we have an expression "making perfection the enemy of the good". What I mean by that is that things are not necessarily bad just because they are not perfect. They can also be good, or at least slightly better than before, but still not perfect.
Quote:
 
they just kill ya more sloqwly now unless it cant be done on the sly
Who are "they"?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
Goliath
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I have to wonder, there are are few phrases you have in Norway that translate pretty easily into English. I've definitely heard of making the perfect the enemy of the good and I can't help but wonder if this was an English saying before it was a Norwegian one.

... After a little bit of research, I find that it (of course) was French before it was anything else - Voltaire said it. My Anglo-centricism is punctured ever so slightly
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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HA! And the next time you use the word "slalom", "fjord" or "bag" you can deflate even further by your use of good old Norwegian words :)

Anyway, the Chinese invented everything so we can all give up our Eurocentrism anyway :D
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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conradw
Goliath
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oh yeah. because I talk about fjords and slaloms so often! :P :P

bags, on the other hand I do use.
I learned that the suffix -son in surnames used in the UK is something we got from the Vikings. I kind of like the idea that I am of Viking descent...

If you really want to puncture anglo-centricism when it comes to the Norwegians, just look at the days of the week we use. Tiw's day, Wodan's Day, Thor's day, Frigg's day, (saturday, sunday and monday are all Roman instead).
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