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I don't get it
Topic Started: 28 Jun 2010, 02:48 PM (5,641 Views)
cheesebug
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Concolor
1 Jul 2010, 11:53 AM
There is definitely debate in that :D

@cheezy: From your previous post, it looks like you're only believing in God because you think it's the safest bet. Would that really please him?
....noooo.... >:( grumpyface!
dont be so ignorant, she asked what made us so sure, not about our relationship!

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and think: she wanted storms."
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Midst Of Vampy
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yeah, I really try to see it your way, and I'm sorry if I ever cause trouble. I try not to.
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Luemas
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I was kidding, sheez.

No worries. No worries.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
Even if it's wrong :P
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chocolatepope
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My thoughts exactly, Lue :)
I want to thank you for being a part of my
Forget-me-nots and marigolds
And all the things that don't get old
Is it legal to do this? I surely don't know.
It's the only way I have learned to express myself
through other peoples' descriptions of life
I'm afraid I'm alone and entirely useless

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Concolor
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Luemas
2 Jul 2010, 10:14 AM
Welcome to a place where you can talk about Jesus, with little to no interference from our Atheist section.
Actually, that's another section. This is the Debate section. The debate section is defined by interference :D

@Solar Flare: I actually like your "beauty of nature"-argument better, even if I (naturally) am not convinced by either.
And don't worry, I don't experience anything you say as pushing your beliefs, this IS a Christian site and I wouldn't come here unless I was interested to see other perspectives than my own.

However, you have wandered into the Debate-section, where questions are asked and objections are raised. in post #22 you not only demonstrate a thorough command of scripture, but also independent use of reflection and reasoning. I'm having problems following you all the way through though:
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God knew that there was no possible way that we could ever have any kind of association with Him because of our sin.
You say "knew" as if a rule was set for him, but wasn't it God himself who made that rule. And didn't he make it knowing fully well what would happen? Would it not have been better to have made it differently, so that Adam and Eve would not have been kicked out of paradise?
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God knew that there was no possible way that we could ever have any kind of association with Him because of our sin
Once again, he could have chose otherwise.
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He chose to die on the cross for the sins of all people. He became the "perfect" sacrifice for all our sins, and God accepted His death for our sins as payment in full
But Jesus IS God. Why go through all the trouble of making a rule you know they would brake, and making other rules than says you have to kill yourself to appease yourself? Why not jump straight to the forgiveness part? And why wait so long to send Jesus down there?

Also, the whole setup really isn't fair. If you do something wrong you're punished. That's fair, that's just. Punishing a child for what his father has done is NOT just. There are tons of movies and books with stories of people being punished for what others in their family have done, and we all cringe when we read of such injustice. So how can Adams children be punished for what he did?

And when it comes to payback time, Adam is not the one who finally has to pay his dues, it's Jesus (if we ignore all the suffering people who have paid in the mean time). Sure this may be a nice gesture from Jesus, but there is no justice in it, Adam should pay the price (which allegedly he did by dying). Think about it: If you have really done a crime and a sentence is passed on you, but someone in the courtroom stands up and says "I will serve the time rather than the defendant". Would a fair judge accept this? More importantly, would YOU accept it? Knowing that an innocent man, even if he says he wants to do it, serves a punishment that you should rightfully serve would make most of us sick to think of. Would you not think higher of the criminal who holds his head high and accepts his verdict, rather than the one who sneaks away from it letting others pay his dues?
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Quote:
 
You say "knew" as if a rule was set for him, but wasn't it God himself who made that rule. And didn't he make it knowing fully well what would happen? Would it not have been better to have made it differently, so that Adam and Eve would not have been kicked out of paradise?
being the debate section i wont listen,reflect and work with you in partnership-how would you have made it ? just rule out the possibility of bad choice on our behalf ? No God merelt presented a choice for us,a choice he "knew" to bring us into relationship with us thus cancelling out the power of sin to harm us eternally.

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Also, the whole setup really isn't fair. If you do something wrong you're punished. That's fair, that's just. Punishing a child for what his father has done is NOT just. There are tons of movies and books with stories of people being punished for what others in their family have done, and we all cringe when we read of such injustice. So how can Adams children be punished for what he did?

you confuse God with Satan - generational sin can be renounced by asking Jesus to show you where the evil one got a foothold in ur life -then showing you the point you knowingly or unknowingly colaberated or allowed the sin to flourish (eg-vows etc..)

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Would a fair judge accept this? More importantly, would YOU accept it? Knowing that an innocent man, even if he says he wants to do it, serves a punishment that you should rightfully serve would make most of us sick to think of. Would you not think higher of the criminal who holds his head high and accepts his verdict, rather than the one who sneaks away from it letting others pay his dues

this is a good anlaysis ! its longer to discuss than i have a chance to right now but i really would like to talk about this................
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but just quickly-remember the trinity
remember that God,Jesus and the holy spirit remember what we have said about the Godhead-

the 3 persons that are 1

Divine wrath taken onto itself -remember then mercy that we have discussed

look up the definition of "substitution" &"Pardon"

Rugby League beckons !!!!

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SolarFlare
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I enjoy debating and defending my faith; it helps me grow in ways I would have never thought of on my own.

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You say "knew" as if a rule was set for him, but wasn't it God himself who made that rule. And didn't he make it knowing fully well what would happen? Would it not have been better to have made it differently, so that Adam and Eve would not have been kicked out of paradise?

I think you are asking why there is an Old Testament in the first place. Why not just skip to where all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and skip the parts we (as Christians) rationalize away anyway?

I had this question when I was wondering about tattoos and body piercings. "You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD" (Leviticus 19:28). But earlier in the chapter the people of Israel were commanded to avoid mixing fibers in garments: "Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you" (Leviticus 19:19). This confused me because I'm breaking the mixing fibers law right now.

It was explained to me that it helps to know that God originally set aside the Jewish people as a "higher standard" among the pagan nations, through whom the Messiah would come. As a result, many of their laws were given to wean them from pagan customs, habits and appearances.

Sorry about the long, round-about answer.

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God knew that there was no possible way that we could ever have any kind of association with Him because of our sin.

Once again, he could have chose otherwise.

I haven't thought about this question a lot so I don't know the accepted answer, but I can give you what I'm thinking right now.

God knew we were going to fail the whole time, but he had to give us the chance to see that we could not do it on our own, and we needed his help. I think about the Old Testament and realize that it's full of stories about people who thought they could get along on their own and they end up failing. I know he knew that He was going to send His Son to save us when He created the world. I feel like He sent His Son to give us a wake-up call that was so blatant that we could not miss it. I also feel like He sent His Son to walk among His children and have a relationship with them.

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But Jesus IS God.

I've had this explained to me in an interesting way. Think of the Trinity as a box. The box has three dimensions that make it up, length, width and height. Each dimension has it's own identity (the length doesn't depend on the height) but they aren't independent (you can't have a box with simply height; then it would be just a line). My tiny human brain doesn't understand where exactly God ends and Jesus begins.

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Why go through all the trouble of making a rule you know they would brake?

This was a big question I had: Why God put the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden?

God didn't want Adam and Eve to sin and eat the fruit, but he knew what the outcome would be. He allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve because He wanted to give them a choice; free will. It was their decision that meant Jesus would have to die on the cross. Because they sinned, they brought knowledge of evil to the world.

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Also, the whole setup really isn't fair. If you do something wrong you're punished. Punishing a child for what his father has done is NOT just. There are tons of movies and books with stories of people being punished for what others in their family have done, and we all cringe when we read of such injustice. So how can Adams children be punished for what he did?

We aren't being punished because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. We are being punished for the sins we have committed in our own lives because we are, as humans, prone to a sinful life. You say that that doesn't seem fair, but God gave us something to level the playing field. He gave us His only Son, so all we have to do is ask forgiveness for our sins and we are forgiven. We can make the exact same mistake everyday for our entire life and as long as we ask forgiveness, everything is forgiven.

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And when it comes to payback time, Adam is not the one who finally has to pay his dues, it's Jesus (if we ignore all the suffering people who have paid in the mean time). Sure this may be a nice gesture from Jesus, but there is no justice in it, Adam should pay the price (which allegedly he did by dying). Think about it: If you have really done a crime and a sentence is passed on you, but someone in the courtroom stands up and says "I will serve the time rather than the defendant". Would a fair judge accept this? More importantly, would YOU accept it? Knowing that an innocent man, even if he says he wants to do it, serves a punishment that you should rightfully serve would make most of us sick to think of. Would you not think higher of the criminal who holds his head high and accepts his verdict, rather than the one who sneaks away from it letting others pay his dues?

I don't know the answer to that question. Would you mind if I asked someone and got back to you?
Edited by SolarFlare, 2 Jul 2010, 04:30 PM.
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Midst Of Vampy
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Grrrrr.... :P :P
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@SolarFlare: It's great that you like debating, because I like that too. I also like discussing things, so if you prefer that I could also go for some discussions.
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I think you are asking why there is an Old Testament in the first place.
Not really. I'm saying he didn't have to set it up so that we needed forgiveness in the first place.
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Sorry about the long, round-about answer.
That's okay, but I still don't see how that answers your question. If the old testament was for the old Jews, why is it a part of the holy book of modern Christians? Galileo's books are an interesting part of history, and the foundations of much science, but it's not in the curriculum anymore.
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I haven't thought about this question a lot so I don't know the accepted answer, but I can give you what I'm thinking right now.
Are you certain that I would be more persuaded by the "accepted answer"? Are you sure every minister of every congregation would give you the same "accepted answer"? From what I've read so far you make more sense than many ministers, so I wouldn't worry about that :)
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God knew we were going to fail the whole time, but he had to give us the chance to see that we could not do it on our own, and we needed his help.
I have two objections:
1. But God MADE the rules. He didn't have to make so that we would fail. He could have helped us BEFORE we fell, by making it impossible. Much in the same way he made it impossible for us to explode other peoples heads by staring at them.
2. He could have given us this knowledge directly, just like the knowledge we have on how to breathe.
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My tiny human brain doesn't understand where exactly God ends and Jesus begins.
Mine neither. I've heard a poem about St.Patrick that goes kinda like this (a shamrock is a three-leafed clover):

St. Patrick held the shamrock aloft for all to see
and said behold this symbol of the Holy Trinity:
Father, Son and Holy Ghost
one, yet one in three

When I hear it I get the feeling of understanding it, but when I think further about it I really don't: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not physical entities adjoined at the hips. It's just an analogy, and analogies can only take you so far before they break down. They're only good insofar as they are useful. And none of these analogies helps me to understand how it was necessary for God to kill his son, or himself, or someone in between, in order to appease himself. Isn't that what forgiveness is for?
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God didn't want Adam and Eve to sin and eat the fruit, but he knew what the outcome would be. He allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve because He wanted to give them a choice; free will. It was their decision that meant Jesus would have to die on the cross. Because they sinned, they brought knowledge of evil to the world.
Is it enough to give them a choice, and then you are not to blame for anything they do? Remember that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit. It was not an informed choice. They had no way of knowing that listening to God was good and listening to the snake was evil. And why did god put the snake there in the first place? If you read that story in the Bible, can you honestly not think of a single thing you would have done differently if you were the one to put Adam and Eve in the garden (assuming you actually liked them and really wanted them to have a nice life)? And knowledge of evil is not a bad thing, evil is a bad thing. Knowledge of evil is (as Adam and Eve unfortunately demonstrated) the only way to avoid evil.
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We are being punished for the sins we have committed in our own lives because we are, as humans, prone to a sinful life.
Actually, that is not true and you know it. This may sound like a harsh thing to say, but I mean it more as a point of fact. Children which are borne with horrible deformities have obviously not have time to do any sins, yet they are clearly in agony. And what happens to a baby that dies before anyone has time to teach it about Jesus? Heaven? Hell? Limbo?
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I don't know the answer to that question. Would you mind if I asked someone and got back to you?
I don't mind at all. I just hope the one you ask won't be mad at you for talking with evil non-believers :D

In fact, don't just ask one person, ask a couple of different people. It's always good to have more than one source.
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@ARAZEC:
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how would you have made it ? just rule out the possibility of bad choice on our behalf ?
Well, that definitely sounds like a better alternative. Or how about making the bed things that happen a little bit less bad? What if God made it so that we still would have people fighting and it would still be painful to stub a toe, but no wars or rape?
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No God merelt presented a choice for us,a choice he "knew" to bring us into relationship with us thus cancelling out the power of sin to harm us eternally
So there was really no relationship between God and Adam until Adam sinned? Why could God just snap his fingers and cancel out the power of sin right from the beginning? If we are freed from sin when we come to heaven, does that mean we can't sin in heaven? Does that not remove the free choice? Does that mean that we can live in eternal bliss in heaven without free choice?
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generational sin can be renounced by asking Jesus to show you where the evil one got a foothold in ur life
I'm not asking how to remove it. I'm asking why it is supposed to be fair to have it there in the first place.
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this is a good anlaysis ! its longer to discuss than i have a chance to right now but i really would like to talk about this
Me too :)
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Divine wrath taken onto itself -remember then mercy that we have discussed
To me this sounds really absurd. If I made a rule for you on how to live your life. Then you break it. Then I tell you you must be punished. Then I send you somewhere awful for a couple of thousand years. Then I come over and stab myself and say that by stabbing myself I have redeemed you. Would you call me:
a) merciful
or
b) insane
?
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SolarFlare
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It's great that you like debating, because I like that too. I also like discussing things, so if you prefer that I could also go for some discussions.

Discussions sound nice (I grow weary of pointed debates quickly), but I fear I would end up screaming (or typing in caps) that you are wrong. I'm probably too opinionated for my own good. :/

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Not really. I'm saying he didn't have to set it up so that we needed forgiveness in the first place.

Then everyone would just go to heaven. Supposedly my denomination (United Methodist) doesn't believe there's a hell (or Hades; that would make more sense), but I don't believe that. I believe that God doesn't "send" people to hell; people choose to go to hell when they reject God. If there is no hell, salvation isn't necessary, and if salvation isn't necessary, Jesus' death was not necessary, and God killed His Son for no reason. Well, in my mind, that is completely wrong. I think this belief stemmed from what people think God's love should be. God is just, so far beyond our understanding. He is so loving we can't even comprehend it.

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If the old testament was for the old Jews, why is it a part of the holy book of modern Christians?

To prove that we need God to get to heaven, and be truly happy. If God just gave me the New Testament, I'd read it and think, "Hmm... this is hard. I bet I can find an easier way to get to heaven." Well, now I look at the Old Testament and think, "Wow. Look at all of these people who failed. Well, I guess I do need God to help me." Especially since I've made a lot of mistakes in my life and I'm nowhere as good as, say, Job. He was tested so hard, and he never broke. And he didn't even go to Heaven when he died. He went to Abraham's Bosom (like Limbo, if you've read Dante's Inferno). I know Elijah went straight to heaven, and I want to say someone else did, but I don't remember exactly. Other than that, no one made it, so what chance do I have of getting there?

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Are you certain that I would be more persuaded by the "accepted answer"?

Ha, I guess not. Well, I don't know everything about my religion, and I guess I just wanted to cover my bases, in case I said something stupid and someone called me out. I don't want to mislead people.

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But God MADE the rules. He didn't have to make so that we would fail. He could have helped us BEFORE we fell, by making it impossible. Much in the same way he made it impossible for us to explode other peoples heads by staring at them.

Making it impossible for us to sin? There's no reward in that. God wants us to love him because we want to, not because we have to. To have nonfreethinking and nonfreedoing robots precisely duplication yourself is vain and boring. When you have people that can do whatever they choose and they choose to be good and right, it brings pleasure to God.

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He could have given us this knowledge directly, just like the knowledge we have on how to breathe.

I don't exactly have the choice to not breathe. I could choke myself, but that would be a lot of work, and I don't see a lot of people on the street trying not to breathe. I feel like faith is the same way. It's much easier to not do anything, which I think is why God didn't make it a bodily function like breathing. It's more rewarding when people go out of their way to please him.

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And none of these analogies helps me to understand how it was necessary for God to kill his son, or himself, or someone in between, in order to appease himself. Isn't that what forgiveness is for?

The analogies break down before they actually answer the question. Darn human constructs. We have so much sin and God is so perfect that he can't even looks at us; we are just so filthy. In the Old Testament, people had to sacrifice things to clear their sins (I don't understand why, it's just a rule God made) and Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. His blood reached back to Genesis and will reach forward until the end of time, touching all of his sheep (that's me and you!) and clearing their sins so that we could rejoin our father (that is, if we accept Jesus as our savior and sacrifice). When Jesus died, everyone in Abraham's Bosom were able to go to heaven.

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Remember that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit. It was not an informed choice.

They knew that their father told them not to under any circumstances. They knew about obedience and disobedience. I feel like, even today, I don't truly know the difference between good and evil; it's not all black and white. It goes back to the whole thing where God doesn't want to control people, he wants them to make their own decisions.

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And why did god put the snake there in the first place?

God doesn't test people harder than he knows they can handle, but that doesn't mean people don't fail. If God never tested people, they would become complacent in their faith, and end up thinking they don't need God in their lives. I feel like the snake and the fruit were tests that Adam and Eve failed, but I feel like life is better now, for me because of it. I have the freedom to live my life however I want, with an incentive at the end. I'm not a robot with everything I've ever wanted. It's more fun for me. Without low times in my life I wouldn't know how wonderful the good times are. With out experiences in my life where I was far from God, I wouldn't know how nice it is to be close to Him.

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Actually, that is not true and you know it.

Ouch. That hurt. :(

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Children which are borne with horrible deformities have obviously not have time to do any sins, yet they are clearly in agony.

When Adam and Eve sinned they brought evil, sickness and death into the world. No, those children have not committed any sins, and I don't believe it's to punish the parent's sins either. I know that child, according to my human understanding, doesn't deserve this, but God has a reason for doing it. I feel like it's a test that God personally knows that person can overcome. Plus, there is no suffering, disease or pain in heaven; it can only get better. It goes back to Job. God allowed Satan to do horrible things to Job, but he said “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job didn't understand why God was testing him like this, but he knew God was with him, and that was good enough. Technically, I don't deserve this life, I didn't do anything for it so it makes since that God can take it away or do anything to me he wants to me and I should be doing everything to please him. I don't understand why God allows babies to be born with deformities, but whatever the reason, it's completely just.

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And what happens to a baby that dies before anyone has time to teach it about Jesus? Heaven? Hell? Limbo?

Do you know what the Salvation Act is? It's in 1 Peter:10-11 and it says that the saints of the Old Testament didn't know about Jesus and didn't completely understand how exactly to go about getting into heaven, but they were righteous and believed in God and had a relationship with him. They went to Abraham's Bosom (Limbo) first, but they spoke with God and were granted into Heaven. I think that's what happens to people who were never educated about God's love, including babies and people who have never heard of the Christian religion. God can see their hearts and knows if they have lived a life for him, even if they didn't personally know him.

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I don't mind at all. I just hope the one you ask won't be mad at you for talking with evil non-believers.

I'll just tell them I'm trying to convert you--they'll understand (joke about stereotypical Christian behavior; I'm not really trying to convert you).

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In fact, don't just ask one person, ask a couple of different people. It's always good to have more than one source.

True that, but I'm kind of cut-off from the Christian community right now. I love the Bible and God, but some people...I just don't have the patience for. I'll see them on Monday, so I'll get back to you then. :)
Edited by SolarFlare, 3 Jul 2010, 11:14 PM.
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Lingering in the ocean blue, and If I had one wish come true,
I'd surf till the sun sets beyond the horizon.
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Blaze
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SolarFlare
30 Jun 2010, 07:17 PM
In this post I am not trying to convert anyone to Christianity. If someone opposes the possibility of God, then no amount of evidence is going to persuade them, and they will be able to explain away or rationalize any evidence given to prove a God.

That being said, this is why I, myself, believe in God.

I like to think of myself as a scientist. I believe in Evolution, The Big Bang Theory, String Theory, ect. I thought that meant that my scientific beliefs couldn't mesh with my Christian beliefs. I read a book called Who Made the Moon? by Sigmund Brouwer and it explained that the universe and nature are far too complicated to be merely coincidental. For example, the Earth is the exact size and shape to be held the exact distance from the Sun by gravity. Also, the Earth is the exact mass to be able to hold an extremely thin layer of oxygen and nitrogen to the surface, which is the exact mixture of gasses -- and in the correct ratios -- to sustain plant, animal and human life. If the earth was smaller, like Mercury, it would be impossible to have an atmosphere. If it were larger, like Jupiter, the atmosphere would contain mostly hydrogen particles. The Moon is also the perfect size to push and pull the oceans in tides, so that the water doesn't stagnate or overflow onto the continents.

Water is an amazing substance. It has an unusually high boiling temperature and unusually low freezing temperature. This means that we, as humans, can survive in environments with fluctuating temperatures and keep our bodies at 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. Chemically, water is a universal solvent, meaning it is able to carry numerous essential chemicals, minerals and solvents through our body. Water has incredible surface tension making it able to flow against gravity and allow plants to grow. Water freezes top-down, so fish can live under it in the winter.

The human brain is able to perform many tasks simultaneously with an incredible amount of information. Your brain processes all of the colors and objects you see around you, processes the temperature of the air, the pressure of the floor against your feet, the scents you smell and the flavors you taste, while at the same time, managing fluctuations in ongoing functions of your body, including breathing, eye movement, hunger and muscle patterns. Also, the brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

Perhaps none of this seems truly spectacular to anyone else, but the complexities, to me at least, are mind-boggling. I don't believe simply nature could have created all of these things, thus, I find the evidence to point to God.

A lot of my facts I found here and in Sigmund Brouwer's book, Who Made the Moon?.
The only portion of that I don't agree with is String Theory. Posted Image

Also, it just sounds really too silly to be taken seriously, and I've not seen any real supporting evidence. It's more like useless philosophy with a minor in science.

Of course, I don't want to get started on a string theory debate on a christen forum. It just would feel weird.
"Even when our eyes are closed, there's a whole world out there that lives outside ourselves and our dreams."
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Noo, I had written a five-page reply and then I closed the wrong tab.

@Blaze: I completely agree with you on string theory. If it doesn't bring falsifiability to the table it's not science.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Midst Of Vampy
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Barabbas
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Oh, that sucks, Concolor. And that is true.
TIMEY-WHIMEY SKITTLES!
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