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| Tweet Topic Started: 28 Jun 2010, 02:48 PM (5,640 Views) | |
| SolarFlare | 7 Jul 2010, 11:58 AM Post #46 |
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Crab King
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Did you know Sir Isaac Newton was a philosopher? He invented/created/discovered Calculus. Now we call him a theoretical physicist. People today are still "philosophers", they just go by different job titles--specifically research scientist and mathematician, to name a few, so they are not plagued by the stereotypical stupidity the general public. Did you know we have never actually seen pictures of neutrons and electrons? There are technically photos of protons, if you can really call them that. They're really diagrams of the energy the protons use. Also, I, personally, have never seen any of these pictures. Does that mean my entire Chemistry class was a lie? I don't think so, because there are other ways to prove something is there, even if we can not see it with the naked or technologically aided eye. I feel the same about String Theory. Did you know there is no gravity at zero distance? On the large level we live in (and the astronomically large level of the planets) physics works one way, and we can document and study it pretty readily. The problem is, on the molecular and smaller levels, physics breaks down and the laws aren't laws anymore. Another problem with working on this small a level is we can't experiment to see if our hypothesis' are true. Does that mean we give up on trying? I don't think so. We just find other ways to explain phenomenon we can experience. String Theory explains some of these phenomenon, which is why I'm more inclined to believe it (at least parts of it) than nothing at all. I wont start a scientific debate here for a few different reasons. It's a Christian forum, and many members don't share my scientific viewpoints (Blaze, Concolor and Vampira; case-in-point). Also, having scientific discussions are so much more difficult than religious ones because of the vast amounts of information covered. All I need to argue religion is the Bible. To even understand the beginnings of String Theory you must understand basic calculus concepts and some intermediate physics concepts. When you get further into the theory, you really need to start understanding quantum mechanics and differential calculus, which I will readily admit, I am far from and expert on. Also, I'm kind of lazy and don't want the trouble of arguing two completely different topics. @Concolor So, does this mean our [religious] discussion is over? ...does anyone, besides Concolor, even read my really long posts? Edited by SolarFlare, 7 Jul 2010, 11:59 AM.
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There's no place I'd rather be than on my surfboard out at sea. Lingering in the ocean blue, and If I had one wish come true, I'd surf till the sun sets beyond the horizon. | |
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| Concolor | 7 Jul 2010, 01:27 PM Post #47 |
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Barabbas
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Not by a long shot I was just really set back by loosing my enormous post. We do have a problem that as we cover so many issues simultaneously, our posts will be enormously long.No, you also need the Quran, the Bhgavadgad Ghita, the teachings of Buddha, the book of Mormon, the book of the Dead (and perhaps of the living), Håvamål, etc. And even if you were to only debate Christianity, you must agree that the book alone does not cover all there is to say about that particular religion. All the wildly different creeds such as gnostisism, catholicism, orthodoxism, lutheranism, quackers, shakers, southern baptists, methodists, pentecostalists etc. have all distinctly different interpretations of the text. Also none of this addresses the philosophical questions behind religion. Never mind the different creeds. How can we even assume there is something supernatural to start with? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Concolor | 7 Jul 2010, 02:36 PM Post #48 |
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Barabbas
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@SolarFlare: I think we are used to different definitions of the word "discussion". I'm used to a discussion being a way to explore different viewpoints without anyone trying to win (ideally). What you described sounds like what I would call an argument. Um...Yay? How would that not be absolutely great? I agree, but that leads me to a different conclusion ![]() If God's justice is so different from our justice, why call it justice? If his love is so incomprehensible, what makes you think it is love? I really think God would be an able enough writer to make an updated proof that we needed to go to heaven without including a lot of obscenities and obsolete rules that we are "not meant" to actually follow. You do know that there are many Christians who DO follow these rules? How can you be certain that they are wrong and you are right? That is a noble goal, and I do share that with you. Unfortunately it's not enough. Take two religious leaders: A Hindu Guru and an Islamic Mullah. They both speak passionately and convincingly to the crowd. They both gather their followers. Yet they cannot both be right. At least one of them is misleading the others. Do you really think that this person is aware of this? I think they both believe they are doing the right thing with all their heart. Why? Why? Why? I'm not trying to be infantile or repetitive, I'm trying to make you answer the bigger question that lies beneath. I know you didn't mean to be blasphemous, but your sentence makes God look like a sadist that likes to see us squirm. Could you try to phrase it differently? Are you suggesting we are the result of poor workmanship? ![]() Really? They still could not know obedience was good and disobedience was evil. How can you be expected to be moral if you do not know good from evil? How is this not a contradiction? Handling a test means that you don't fail it. He tested, they failed. Obviously they didn't handle it too well. Are you sure? Whenever I need it I have air to breathe. Do I therefore think I don't need it to live? Quite the contrary. The more absent God seems the less he seems needed. Hindu's have different Gods, and it would never have occurred to them that the God of the Bible was missing from their lives. But are you sure you need there to be rape and war in the world to enjoy a sunny day or a sitcom? Why not simply contrast what is good with something only slightly less good? It does that sometimes. Babies. Dying in agony minutes after being torn from their mother's womb. You cannot seriously suggest that they are supposed to "overcome" this? That is a dangerous line of thought. What torture and cruelty could you not defend with such a statement? "General, the prisoner refuses to talk." "Then torture him, inflict upon him every pain imaginable. Just make sure to kill him afterwards. There is no pain in heaven so in the end he will not suffer, and we have therefore done nothing wrong. In fact he should thank us for sending him to blissful Heaven sooner rather than later." This is the single most offensive statement I have ever read. (Don't worry I'm not angry, and I know it probably makes sense to you. it's just a point of fact.) Once again, what frightens me with your reasoning is that it opens up for any kind of cruelty to be justified, even promoted as holy. What if your minister told you it was God's will that all Muslim nations had to be destroyed? What if he urged you into a holy war, commanded by God himself? Would you not feel just? Would you not feel righteous? Would you not kill and maim with a joyful heart? What if, and if you know your Bible you should see what I'm getting at, you were convinced that God ordered you to eradicate another people and crush the heads of their children with your feet? What would you do? How is this fair? Simply because they lived in a different age, they suddenly don't have to be tested? God simply looks into their hearts. Why could he not do the same with the rest of us, and we would be freed from the hardships of this world? And why, if he already knows what is in their hearts does he choose to create those he knows will fail and go to Hell? Actually, in a way you are. You are presenting me with arguments that you find convincing in favor of your view. You must realize that if I find it as convincing as you do (and assuming it is true, I should) I have no choice but to convert. It is of course the same way with me. My intention is not to convert you, but that is the direction my arguments are trying to push you in. Also, if you truly believe that I will go to hell if I don't believe in Christ, you would be some kind of monster if you were NOT trying to convert me
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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Luemas
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8 Jul 2010, 08:09 AM Post #49 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Also Solar, you've got nothing on long posts. Conc has you beat. And I've written some doozies in my time. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| Concolor | 8 Jul 2010, 09:31 AM Post #50 |
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Barabbas
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@SolarFlare: just to be precise, when Lue says I have you beat he is talking only of post-length. Not argumentally. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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Luemas
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8 Jul 2010, 10:23 AM Post #51 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Yeah. SolarFlare has you beat there Conc.
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| SolarFlare | 9 Jul 2010, 11:20 PM Post #52 |
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Crab King
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@Concolor
Touche. You win this battle. ![]()
I don't know anything about any other denominations. I guess it's really stupid of me to judge them as wrong when I don't know anything about them.
I thought that's what my first two posts were about. That's also what I'm kind of bummed about with religion. I don't mind having a little faith at the beginning, but I feel like I've taken my faith so far and I'm so far away from hard fact and science that I get scared and retreat back to safe ground. I have to keep getting the courage up to trust in God and go a little bit further than where I last ended up.
I'm sorry, that's what I meant by discussion, but I know myself too well. I know if we start having a nice pleasant discussion and you say something I don't like, I may throw in a rude or sarcastic comeback and end up ruining it. I don't want to make you angry, so I'll try to stick with just saying what I think of in a polite and sophisticated manner. ![]()
You can't take one sentence out of context! You have to read the whole paragraph to understand my view. I would love it if everyone went to heaven, but I also understand that there are “rules” and guidelines we have to follow to earn the privilege of going to heaven. I say rules with quotation marks because I believe we don't have to follow the Old Testament laws to the point, but some of them are still valid today (the Ten Commandments for example), thus I feel that God wants me to live that life. I'm sorry, but that last paragraph probably doesn't make much since if you don't live in my brain. If you have questions I will be more than happy to try and rephrase it.
I can understand why it would.
What else would you call it? I don't have an extensive knowledge of the English Language, so sometimes I don't choose the best words to describe things. At the same time, I wonder if there is a word for it. I could never love someone with the same kind of love God loves me with. If God does something, I believe it's right and just, even if I don't understand why. It goes back to that whole “faith” thing again.
In The Old Testament, God told the people of the Earth what was right and wrong and told them to write it down. If someone came up to you and said that God told them to write a brand new bible and everyone should follow it, would you believe them? I don't think I would. It's just the times we live in and I think God understands that. I thought Judaism was where the followers took to heart the teachings of the Old Testament. Really, I don't know the first thing about Judaism. Like I said before, I'm not an expert on... anything. I'm not stupid. I don't know if they are right and I am wrong. The probability that my understandings and interpretations of the Bible and Christianity are correct is so low, I might as well give up on it. Everyday I question my religion; whether it's right or wrong All I know is I feel better praying and reading and believing that someone is watching over me. Perhaps I've lulled myself into a false sense of security, but, I'm okay with that. You only live your life once.
That's difficult. I know, in my faith, if I mess up and say the wrong thing, God will forgive me. I don't want to think that anyone is trying to guide anyone else down the wrong path, but I'm not so ignorant as to say that it doesn't happen. I do believe that both of them believe in their hearts that they are doing the right thing. If I understand Islam correctly, they believe that Jesus was one of God's messengers, but not His Son, correct? They do not believe he was crucified on the cross, thus, he did not die for our sins, correct? Based on this limited knowledge, I would have to say that a Muslim would not earn a place in heaven. The Bible says, “go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:15-16). I will be the first to admit, I know even less about Hindu religions. Hindus believe in more than one God, correct? They also don't believe Jesus Christ died for their sins? Then preliminary, I would say no, they also did not earn a trip to heaven. Have they even heard of Jesus Christ though? If not, I would have to revise my answer. I don't like that answer. I cry and pray every night for people who I am terrified won't go to heaven. But who am I to judge? God is who judges people's hearts and grants them salvation or not. He knows people (and his own word for that matter) better than me. I hope I'm wrong.
I fail the test. I don't understand what you're asking when you ask why to the last three responses and I don't see the underlying question. Could you spell it out for me?
How is what I said blasphemous? I would think it would be more sadistic if He forced us to love and worship Him if we didn't want to. I'm not squirming because I love Him; I'm happy. He's happy because I love Him and am trying to do the right thing, kind of like a parent is proud when their child says “thank you” and “excuse me”.
:O I don't know what you're talking about. I'm perfect (sorry, that's the narcissism speaking). I'm not perfect, but that's not God's fault. God could have made us perfect, but then it goes back to the question of making us love him. I feel like we're going in circles... I'm sorry I can't give you any other, new and exciting ideas. ![]()
Oh! I just reread Genesis 3 (I really don't like reading Genesis, it's rather boring) and God didn't tell Adam and Eve they would learn the difference between good and evil, he said they would die. The serpent said they would not die, rather, learn of good and evil. Learn something new everyday. I guess that kind of changes my opinion. If the person who made everything said I was going to die if I ate something, I don't think I'd eat it. It's about common sense, not good vs. evil.
I don't follow... In my chemistry class, my teacher gave me all the notes of everything that was going to be on the test. Also, if he didn't cover everything, I had a textbook to help me follow. There are never questions on the test I shouldn't know how to do (like organic chemistry concepts for example). I have every resource to pass the test, and if I fail the test, it's my own fault, not the teacher's fault. It's the same with this situation. Adam and Eve could have chosen not to eat the fruit; it wasn't like they couldn't win, and it's not God's fault that they didn't choose correctly.
The sad thing is, we technically, biologically speaking, don't need God to live. If we died because we didn't believe and pray to God, you can bet people would be filling up the sanctuaries every Sunday. But then they are not doing it because they want to, rather, because they have to. That doesn't mean I don't personally need Him in my life. Just because I don't biologically need my father (we'll call him Tim, so we don't confuse him with God) in my life, doesn't mean I don't love him and don't want him in my life. Does that make any sense?
I can deal with the slightly less good myself. A paper cut? Pfft, I'll get a bandage and be ok tomorrow. Being paralyzed and never being able to walk again? I think I might die of depression. It's the really big things that I can't fix myself that I need to pray to God for. I can't fix rape or war, so I pray to God to either fix it himself, or help me to help others who are affected by tragedies like that.
I don't understand it. I'm only human, how could I possibly have the answer to that? I'm not heartless, I feel bad for those children, but now they're in a better place where there is no pain.
Whoa, hold up. I never said humans could inflict torture on other humans. You'd have to have some kind of sick god complex to do that kind of stuff. I'm saying, God can do whatever he pleases with us, he made us and he knows our breaking point. Also, he's the one who passes judgment and grants passes to heaven, not me.
What? I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone in the slightest! I'm sorry.
It's not holy for humans to inflict pain on humans! I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying God can do whatever He wants. We don't have the knowledge God has, thus, we cannot make the same educated decisions He can, meaning we have to live on a different plane than Him. He's the God and we're the followers. We don't get the same privileges He gets.
No, I wouldn't. Meaning, I wouldn't initiate the war, but I would defend my country if it was attacked by the said Muslim nations. Deuteronomy, I choose you! Chapter twenty talks about holy wars and the Israelites and such. “You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jeusites—just as the LORD your God commanded, so that they may not teach you all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:17-18). I would fight so that I could keep worshiping my God, but I wouldn't try to force my opinions on anyone else. If you're getting at the war American is fighting in the Middle East, I can tell you now, I don't support it. ![]()
Aw, I fail the test. Could you point me to the book it's in? To answer your question to the best of my ability right now, yes, I think I would. If I was convinced that God was telling me to kill some group of people, I would. Granted, this is after carefully reading my Bible and talking with other, more knowledgeable Christians, praying and feeling what's in my heart. Plus, if I mess up, but I really think I'm doing the right thing, God knows my intentions and forgive me of my sins.
Oh, they were tested; they were just tested to see if they trusted God and tried to follow Old Testament Laws. Job lived in Old Testament times, remember? I'm just saying that God doesn't count it against them that they don't live in our time, or don't have easy access to knowledge of Jesus' love.
This was a difficult question for me about a year ago. I was really concerned about people who committed suicide and if they went to heaven or not. I wonder because killing yourself is a sin, but after you're dead, you can't exactly ask for forgiveness; you're dead. I asked someone at a youth group I used to attend and she gave me a verse, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never parish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand” (John 10:27-29). She explained that God still does look into their hearts, and even if they make mistakes (even really a really big one in this case) God still loves them, and if they have taken Jesus as their savior, they are still allowed into heaven. That doesn't free us from the hardships of the world though. We don't want to grow complacent in our faith, do we?
If God only made Christians, I wouldn't have you to argue/discuss things with. You are helping me grow in my faith. If everyone agreed on everything, I wouldn't have to find things out for myself. It would be too easy and I would become complacent. I'm sorry I'm coming to the same conclusion for all your questions. I wish I could be more original.
Ahh, you caught me. I cry for everyone I fear is going to Hell, and I pray every night that you read my comments and think “hey, this actually makes a lot of sense. I'm going to go be Christian now,” but I know that's not going to happen. I'm not trying to force my opinions on you, however. That's not fair to you, or to my religion. @Luemas
I have something to aspire for now! I'm at six pages for this post. ![]()
I highly doubt that. I actually took TWO days thinking up these responses, as opposed to my usually one day. Concolor is a formidable opponent. Edited by SolarFlare, 10 Jul 2010, 09:18 PM.
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There's no place I'd rather be than on my surfboard out at sea. Lingering in the ocean blue, and If I had one wish come true, I'd surf till the sun sets beyond the horizon. | |
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| Deleted User | 11 Jul 2010, 09:18 AM Post #53 |
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Deleted User
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*ARAZEC finds m & ms peanut ones yay *oww was reading this the other day...we'red he go ? c'mon was enjoying this............. |
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| Midst Of Vampy | 11 Jul 2010, 01:52 PM Post #54 |
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Barabbas
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Wow, my topic has veeeerry long posts in it. |
| TIMEY-WHIMEY SKITTLES! | |
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| Concolor | 11 Jul 2010, 04:22 PM Post #55 |
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Barabbas
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@SolarFlare:Thank you, and I will assure you that the enjoyment is mutual. Your posts are thoughtful and inspired, and still you manage to scare the s#%t out of me at times. (I apologize for my use of foul language, yet there are no better ways of describing my feelings on the matter). I'll try to find the time to respond as soon as possible. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| conradw | 13 Jul 2010, 01:18 PM Post #56 |
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Goliath
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There is a body of thought, that says "a gaff is when a politician tells the truth." I'm inclined to agree with that body of thought, and as a very practical person, I intend to put it into practice here. We are forever being told that there is no way that anyone can work their way into heaven. It is apparently by grace alone that we are saved. Many many people (including myself) have tried to argue (with very little success, unfortunately) that by saying that to get to heaven you have to believe in Jesus and let him absolve you of your sins is an entry is exactly that: earning your salvation. I know I'm not saying this very clearly, but I hope you get the message despite this: You've replaced good deeds with good dogma and made that the work that gets you into heaven. As an aside - I'd also like to wonder why you can't repent when you're dead. Like any good Catholic, I know that God hears the prayers of the Saints (including, but not limited to the ones from New Orleans), why not the contrite words of the penitent departed as well? |
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Luemas
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13 Jul 2010, 04:09 PM Post #57 |
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DELICIOUS!
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I believe that you are being a slight bit too literalistic, which I can be accused of. If by accepting Jesus makes you perfect, then would being perfect make you Jesus? I guess that's being a little too literalistic, but considering how Jesus is the only one perfect... Anyhow, you're saying that by accepting Jesus, we're working to become perfect, thus getting us into heaven. However strange this may be, the Idea, an eye for an eye works here. According to Romans, the wages of sin are death. We've heard that millions of time before. We deserve death, and the only way to get life, is to not sin. We physically can't, not sin, being human. So we need someone else's life, in order to get into heaven. We're not doing anything, to be true, it's more of redeeming your free laptop. (Virus Fail.) Also, A reason why I don't believe in Purgatory. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, After Death, you're judged, and then you go to either Heaven or Hell. That's how I view it. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| Concolor | 14 Jul 2010, 05:37 PM Post #58 |
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Barabbas
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@SolarFlare:That is an interesting point. Yet you still judge them as wrong. I find that puzzling. You mean when you write that you found the world to be complex and therefore felt that it should have a supernatural designer? Though that is arguably one of the more respectable reasons for a belief in the supernatural, I still have several problems with this being an argument in favor of supernatural deities. Firstly, I don't feel that the mind boggling complexity of nature requires a supernatural agent. You do, and I don't. Notice that none of our feelings about this actually constitutes an argument in favor of any position. Secondly, why do you feel that the origin of complexity needs to be supernatural and not natural? Thirdly, you are applying the anthropic principle by saying that we seem to be so well adapted to the exact planet we live on, and therefore assume that the universe and planet was made to fit our criteria to survive. There's another way of thinking about this, and that is that perhaps we are the ones who have adapted to the existing environment on this planet and the laws of this universe. If you know how evolution works you may see why I find the latter thought more plausible. It's not so much that I took it out of context, as much as I disagree with the scope of your context. I don't think the context you put it in reaches far enough. You want everyone to go to heaven, yet you accept that there are "rules" seemingly without considering who made those rules. God made them, and he didn't have to. If he really wanted us all to go to heaven he would not have made them. To be quite frank: I would call it nonsense. You do realize that I don't really count faith as a good thing? But you would believe exactly the same story coming from a bunch of guys living in the desert two thousand years ago?! I don't understand why you believe that God first gave us the old testament, then you accept he followed up with the new testament but then you don't accept that he followed up with the Quran. This seems to me extremely arbitrary.That is a valid choice, and it's yours to make. (BTW. I think in Christianity you have two lives: earthly and afterlife). For myself, not only do I not feel comforted by the thought of the God of the Bible doing to humanity what the Bible claims he does, I also think the benefits of a false sense of security are hugely outweighed by the dangers of putting dogma before reason. That is my understanding as well. Most versions of Hinduism have many deities yes. correct Many have, many have not. This was not my point. My point was that both men know in their hearts that they are right. Yet they cannot both be. This demonstrates that even if you know something to be true in your heart, it does not have any bearing on what is actually true. The heart is not a tool for finding truth, it's a tool for finding feelings. Yet many people argue from their hearts against what the mind finds to be true. I will. In all of your replies you seem to be forgetting one central point: God made the rules. You speak of the rules as if God is forced to follow them. He wants us to be saved but the rules say worship or burn. But God made the rules. He made justice. He made right and wrong. He made good and evil. If he had wanted it differently he could have made it differently. But he did not. So either he does not want all of us to go to heaven or there is some force that is stronger than God. I can't see any of these fitting very well with the all-powerful, benevolent God you describe to me. It would be even more sadistic if he constantly whipped us too. What I meant was not that this was the most sadistic thing ever, but that if he likes to see us going out of our way to please him then that is more sadistic then helping us without seeing us please him. You re-phrasal sounds better ![]() You keep forgetting that God decides what is perfect. He is the one to decide that making us love him is not a good thing. Um, if I recall that story correctly, they didn't die from eating the apple. In fact they did learn of good and evil. Are you calling God a liar? So God made Adam and Eve without common sense as well as no concept of good and evil? I don't see how this strengthen his case? Your teacher did not make you and the world you live in. If he made you, gave you all your instincts and knowledge, and decided whether you should have free will or not, then he would be the one to decide if you would handle the test or not. (BTW. Does the Bible really say that we have free will?) Does your father constantly test you, to make sure you still love him? Did he leave you alone at the supermarket when you were a kid, so that you would not be complacent? Would he put you out in the cold and make you sick, to test you and see if you handled it? Would you love him more then? Because that's what you said that your God does. That does not answer my question. You said we need bad things so we would appreciate the good things. I asked why the bad things could not be more benign. I don't see what praying to God has to do with it. The interesting part is that you said the answer was that this was God's way of helping us grow by putting us through tests that we overcome. Yet when I put the image in more detail so it became clearer, your knowledge of God's will suddenly disappeared? Hm, so if a villain tries to rape my (hypothetical) wife, I am not allowed to defend her by hitting him as it is God's privilege to inflict pain? Also, what gives God the right to do as he pleases with us? Don't be. If you wish to never offend anyone, then you can never speak a word in case someone finds that particular word offensive. I'm the one who actively takes offence here, regardless if you meant it or not. That is my right, and it is also your right to say what you please even if it offends me. Harassment is something completely different, which you are in no way guilty of. And yet you make repeated claims of knowing God's will, his rules, his love and his justice. How can you be sure of these things if he's on a different plane from us? The verse you quoted said nothing about forcing you to stop believing in your God, it said to teach you about their religions. I just told you something about muslims and hindus, are you allowed to kill me now before I tell you more? Ooops. I didn't find it. But I found a similar one with dashing babies against rocks: Psalm 137:9 See, now that scares me a lot. This does not really answer my question. Why does he let some of us live long lives, and some are killed at birth, when he could have skipped the whole world-thing and just looked into our hearts and sent us straight to heaven or hell? Now there's a comforting thought. I'm created simply to be a tool to strengthen the faith of Christians. As a reward I will burn forever in hell. Again, my question was why is it necessary to create unbelievers (like all those who have never met Christians to strengthen their faiths) when he knows they will go to hell. I do believe non-existence is preferable to eternal torture. But perhaps that is just me. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Deleted User | 14 Jul 2010, 11:09 PM Post #59 |
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God created us to live eternally with him in heaven -I think you concolor are asking-why didnt God make this world such that one could never will to lose his salvation ? and at the same time asking why didnt he make this world so that one would never will to lose his salvation ? Answer to the first part is God did make it so its your choice - freewill - the answer to the second part is answered by the first-hell is the absense of God for eternity- now you can ask why make freedom of will if God knew beforehand man would choose to make evil ? because freedom to be obtained is the absense of what ? What is the adsense of freedom ? sorry to answer a question with a question ! Does God know who ultimately goes to hell or not ? if i am to beleive the Bible i would have to say yes-Do i understand eternity ?-no-do i understand ultimately ?-no i do not-i have some some understanding but the Bible tells us man grapples at the knowledge of an all knowing God-he made us in his image so we have some understanding untill after we live with our freewills......Did he create it this way-must of if i am to beleive the Bible - why dont we evolve into knowing the answer? surely we could evolve a collective concience by now that would have us working like ants for the common cause of propelling our evoulutionary purposes? surely change and adaptation should have us striving to be more like the cockaroaches that makes more sense -what does freedom have to do with survival? why IS freedom survival ?
why do you have rights Concolor ? how does the freedom to choose fit into evolution? the big bang theroy? why does everything strive to live if only to die? why have emotions? Why evolve emotions when they can influence your mind to your own detrement? this process of evolution - for the purpose of surviving why? why live when there is pain loss,life,greif,unjustice,suffering for the chance to have pleasure-when around any corner can be pain but ultimately death (and taxes)? what is the purpose what is your purpose what is purpose ?-YOUR WORLD OF UNBELEIF in GOD SEEMS A LOT MORE COMPLEX TO ME "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen." |
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| Deleted User | 15 Jul 2010, 12:21 AM Post #60 |
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AND another thing why have reason ? reasoning- your prized reasoning- something that you value-something that offends you if ppl dont use ? reasoning is for finding reasons because there are reasons = The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction- whats the reason everything is striving to survive ? things change,adapt to survive to live-whats the reason ? why do the living live if only to die? why does the sunflower turn to the sun and follow it ? whats its purpose for surviving ? |
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I was just really set back by loosing my enormous post. We do have a problem that as we cover so many issues simultaneously, our posts will be enormously long.



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I don't understand why you believe that God first gave us the old testament, then you accept he followed up with the new testament but then you don't accept that he followed up with the Quran. This seems to me extremely arbitrary.
6:44 PM Jul 10