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Does belief decide who goes to heaven?
Topic Started: 13 Jul 2010, 06:22 PM (894 Views)
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rillegas08
31 Oct 2010, 03:36 PM
An atheist who lives a good life and a Christian who lives a bad life are, according to the Bible, both going to Hell when they die. For it is only through Christ's perfect sacrifice that we are made righteous. Atheists do not believe in God, and therefore cannot believe that Jesus was God's Son sent to save humanity from our sins. Christians who live bad lives are not truly Christians, as "the workers are known by their fruits", and when a Christian reaps bad fruits, they confess that they do not follow Christ.
now explain "bad fruits" ?
cause this threads about salvation and the scripture you are referring to ( I'm assuming Mathew 7:21-23 ) seem to be what someone would call "good fruits"
eg those described -
" prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils" and "in thy name done many wonderful works" well from the outside look like reaping "good fruits" right ?

-_- i think Jesus is talking about more than what we reap here.......because truth is he meets you where you are at and often you will be reaping stuff from your past bad choices or generational sin when you meet the Lord-that does not mean you are not a Christian and not going to heaven

Just wanting to clarify its not about your "work" or what you "do" to "earn" - salvation is a gift from God and its free and available and offered to all.
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Afalstein
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Mountain Gnome
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Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer. Yes. The point of heaven and Christ's sacrifice is that mankind NEEDS an intermediary to get to heaven. He CAN'T lead a perfect life, he's not spiritually capable of it. So unless he believes in Christ and allows Christ to take him to heaven, he's not going there. Interestingly, if he believes Christ exists but wants to work his own way to heaven, he's not going there either.

Of course, an atheist doesn't believe in heaven in the first place, so the point is somewhat moot. Certain people might even rather go to hell than depend on God and serve him. ("Tis' better to reign in Hell then serve in Heaven.")
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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Wait, so God creates us imperfect and in need of a savior, then he provides the savior. Yet we are still imperfect (God apparently has no intention of fixing us even if we are "saved") so we stray from the path again, and once again we must come back to be saved.

This sounds an awful lot like the violence-cycle of an abusive relationship. Why does not God save us from the start if he wants to save us anyway? Or at least make sure the saved ones stay saved?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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Nope. God made us perfect. Man messed himself up. God's salvation IS a sort of returning us to perfection. Fairly simple.

Did I ever say that God did NOT save the saved from the start? Or that he did not make sure they stayed that way? You are assuming a great deal.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein:
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Nope. God made us perfect. Man messed himself up. God's salvation IS a sort of returning us to perfection. Fairly simple.
How could we mess up if we were perfect?
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Did I ever say that God did NOT save the saved from the start? Or that he did not make sure they stayed that way? You are assuming a great deal.
Sorry, my bad. I was thinking about all those Christians who say they have been saved, but then stray from the path of God. As far as I know it is entirely possible that they are not truly saved the first time, even if it is impossible for me to know the difference.


On a separate note, even though there are quite a few verses in the Bible saying that man is saved by faith alone, there are also some that suggests that good works are also required, such as these (NIV):

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.
Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.
Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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