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Why I don't believe in God.; Me taking my spleen out...
Topic Started: 15 Sep 2010, 06:32 PM (1,307 Views)
Rose
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It is something I want to share. I don't know why here… really, don't.
**********Sorry about my English, again.
And also sorry about the last part… I hope religious people won't find it offensive.
And once again, wrote something long, hope people will be able to follow...
Thought it's the best place to post it… uhm, I hope it's okay to put it here**************

So I must tell you, that I stopped to believe in God only because of myself.
At the very beginning, when I was young- less than 10 years old, maybe even 6 years old- I preferred to believe God is not real.
And that was because I believed I was bad. And I did some bad things. Now I am 19, and there are things that still make me just shiver… and feel terrible that I did them…
So, I knew God should punish the bad people, and I was very worried about it. It was easier to believe he is not real. Or just to believe in him and to ignore him very hard. ("God probably doesn't like people like me. So I should care the least in order that won't hurt..." or: "So what? I dislike him as well…")
Then, with the time, I learned, trough bible lessons, to dislike God, and not because of me… God gets upset, and he destroys places. Not sure if it's in English as well, but take Amalek as an example… when I grew up- when I was a teen- I thought that in places where good people would find compassion and love to others, God didn't.
Like, let's talk also about hell. Would any of you have the heart to take anyone to such a terrible place?
And then came my rational part. First, spiritually rational: I know I did not believe in God so far out of fear, and now the fear is gone (I am not the terrible poor child I used to be any more), but I can't possibly start to believe in God out of fear. That disgusts me. Fear of troubles in the other world? That's why I will believe in God, not because I love him, because I fear him?
And again- maybe because I never learnt it, maybe because all terrible things that happened, when God stood by, or even wanted it to happen… this love was just not there. So I said, "Okay, maybe one day, I will learn to love God." And then, "Why am I trying to learn to love God, again? Out of fear, hey?" and then: "Ok. I know what matters most, and that is what I value as well, so it's good. The most important thing is to be a good person. I am trying to be so anytime. Not because of God- because of me. And if God exists he may like that, as well."
[[[[And just some other things I don't understand about God- why would he want people to suffer? I am talking now about Judaism- the ceremony when they cut their… why would he order to cut their own body? Why would his religions encourage any kind of suffering- when some dark minded people say homosexuality is against nature- isn't self suffering as well?! My friend said we eat animals even though we feel a pinch watching them suffering and dying because it's a punishment! Why, just why?!]]]]
[[[Once I said to myself, "O.K, Rose. You can start over. You can believe in "your own" God. A real good God, whose messages here on earth were misinterpreted. That somehow felt wrong, as if I believe I can do telekinesis]]]
And at the end came my rational non spiritual part.
Some stories in Genesis are amazingly similar to other polytheist religions'.
In many parts, it completely sounds like God is a polytheist god himself.
Really, when he walks, when he is afraid that Adam and eve would eat the tree of life, because that human beings will be like him…
And just think about it- proofs, proofs and proofs.
People say many things. Some also believed the world was plat. They killed people who said differently, in the name of God. Surprise- it was round.
Back then, people had an excellent reason to believe in God- God is a wonderful thing… this way they won't really die, this way all the people that ruined their and others life are going to get what they deserve, and so will the good people… this way people will have to be nice to one another, also if they don't want to.
This way, anything has explanation- volcano bursts because the Gods are angry.
We now know people could hear voices that won't come from above.
My sister had a clear, strange dream that a man from the sky (No kidding) told her to remember a name of a specific person and talk to him… no person like this is existed, and my sister knows it because she looked for him in Google. She actually did it! She could easily dream about something similar… and without Google and some brains she could believe it's her destination for life.
There are no actual proofs that God is real. If people look rationally (and yes- not from fear like when I was younger, from rationality- people are looking at facts from nearly zero, and make other facts out of it) they can see some things that the bible claims that are true are not true.
[Why do we have an appendix if we don’t need it?]
And really- that is not that weird to think the world was made from itself and was not planned- it had so much time to make itself accidently!
-
And that's how God made me an Atheist…
Oh dear. I don't know how people will be able to read this whole, and getting it altogether- if they have an answer… I said so many things…
Well.
Just have great life, and do what you believe is right for you- as long you don't hurt others.
Thank you if someone reached THAT far… I would barely make it myself if I were you…

And just you to know- nowadays, I sometimes really want to believe in God.
When I want to thank someone, when I want to pray for something to happen- not only for me, but for others… when I want to think my grandma did not go forever… like others that will go…
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cheesebug
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Okay......What's the debating questiuon or disagreement?
http://masochistic-goddess.tumblr.com/poetry
"You will hear thunder and remember me,
and think: she wanted storms."
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Luemas
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Well, I believe she is stating her beliefs in totality, her complete argument, in order to see other's opinions.

But as she said, she doesn't feel or believe in telekinesis, so I won't assume that either.

Also, your English was great, no worries there.

And... now for my rebuttal.

One thing I did like about your statement, was that your refusal to believe in God just because of fear. I agree with that belief, and I think that you should want to come into a relationship with him, not be scared into it.

However...

You mention the stories in Genesis being similar to other polytheistic religions, which ones, if you please.

And then there's the suffering.

This is a rather tough question in the general perception of God. I, would not be surprised if you knew the old testament better than I did, and I would encourage you to correct me.

However, I'm going to chalk part of it up to sin nature.
Also, in Romans, it mentions God leaving humans to their own desires.

It suggests that he tried to help them. He gave them rules to live by, to better their lives, freer of complications.
Not free entirely, because, unfortunately, there's no such thing as perfection. Except for God.

And also, I think it is fair to say everyone has a bit of a different perspective of God.

Oftentimes we think of the happy loving God more than the just and Holy God, but that is depending on our own perspectives, which is understandable.

Within any group of people, there are bound to be variations towards two extremes.

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Concolor
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@Lue: Check out the Egyptian, Greek and Roman myths.

@Rose: Your story is quite interesting. Most people I've spoken to that have deconverted from a religion has started with the rational part, and then the feeling came after.
Your journey seems to me to be the other way around. It reminds me of a friend of mind who used to be a Christian, until he realized that hell was eternal punishment. He could not see how any crime or sin could warrant eternal punishment, and that no good God would invent such a thing.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Rose
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Cheesebug, as Luemas said... maybe you can say I want people to argue with me a little bit about my beliefs. I did not know where to put it, and it somethiing I really wanted to share and hear opinions about.
Luemas- Noah's ark was a story I was tested about and had to compare it to a similiar story from Epic of Gilgamash.
(From Wikipedia: the hero Gilgamesh meets the immortal man Utnapishtim, who tells how the god Ea warned him to build a vessel in which to save his family, his friends, and his wealth and cattle from a great flood by which the gods intended to destroy the world.) It has even some more comperable parts than described...
And also, in some parts in the bible a "Leviatahan" mentioned as God's enemy, which is... another god's enemy (and it also strange by the Judaism at least... God is going to fight this creature he made... he has an enemy... that's not going together with the idea of God Almighty, or spiritual God... once again...)
And about the rules, and God letting people to live as they want- maybe true from one hand... but from the other one... Jewish Circumcision- the "agreement" with God. You may say it's only Judaism, but it should be still the same God who wanted people to injure themselves.
Also, if you live as a monk,and not having family and sexual intercourse- but this way you get closer to God- by ignoring human needs... (In Judaism I know monks must not be so for longer than a month... and still- religious men are barely allowed to look at women, and they sin when they masturbate- too bad their body makes sperm anytime and nudges them and causes them suffering- double suffering- also with guilt and shame...)
And how does it go toegther with, do what you want, follow what you believe- but if you do a,b,c (like I wrote above, not like murdering, or hurting others- which is logical, acceptable...) you will go to hell because you're a sinner?
And also if people "excuse" it with stories (have you heard about Lilith as an explanation for why not masturbating?)
So why did God make it this way? Why did he make people to have a need, or a body part, and then told them to ignore it? This thing encourages suffering... but maybe, I may accept the idea people made these rules by misinterpreting him.
And Concolor- it was also by the order of what happened... that's how it started- more spiritually... and about hell- yes. They say God is very merciful... while- by other things people say in his name... many people I know would be more understanding and loving than him...

By the way, thought for many years Judaism says there is no hell, only heaven... but then I met my religious Jewish friend who started talking about demons and... I just can't ignore the Satan from Job, can it?
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Concolor
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Satan means "opponent" (i think). As in the adversary of God. It's a lot clearer in Zoroastrianism (one of the first monotheistic religions), where the battle between good and evil is introduced, because they do not have the problem (as far as I know) of their God being all-powerful. And so in their case the conflict is more conceivable.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Rose
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Wow Concolor, you're right! About what it means- I almost forgot it. My mother tongue is Hebrew, and Satan means today only "Devil", but back then it was also an enemy\ obstacle, and I almost forgot it.
Specifically in Job though, they don't say just "Satan", they say "The Satan"= the devil... but yes... it came from this word... and about Zoroastrianism, it makes sense...
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Luemas
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Quote:
 
(From Wikipedia: the hero Gilgamesh meets the immortal man Utnapishtim, who tells how the god Ea warned him to build a vessel in which to save his family, his friends, and his wealth and cattle from a great flood by which the gods intended to destroy the world.) It has even some more comperable parts than described...


Alrighty... Let's get this wheelbarrow a turning. I did the same thing you did, but I looked at some dates. The earliest dates(according to Wikipedia) was 2100 BC. It also mentions 7th Century BC... but basically, assuming it was written around 2100 BC, Now, it mentions also in Wonderful Wikipedia, that Abraham was born somewhere around 1900 BC or so.
Abraham, being the descendant of Noah, About 13 times, if I remember correctly. So that would place the Flood myth atleast a couple hundred years before the gilgamesh.

Quote:
 
And also, in some parts in the bible a "Leviatahan" mentioned as God's enemy, which is... another god's enemy (and it also strange by the Judaism at least... God is going to fight this creature he made... he has an enemy... that's not going together with the idea of God Almighty, or spiritual God... once again...)


The only part of the Bible I can think of where the Leviathan is mentioned would be Job. Where it talks about the Leviathan, and how he created it, to be without equal.
This is in Job 41.

It doesn't talk about it being his enemy, unless you're referring to elsewhere. It talks about how mighty it is, and how even more mighty he is than that.



Quote:
 
And about the rules, and God letting people to live as they want- maybe true from one hand... but from the other one... Jewish Circumcision- the "agreement" with God. You may say it's only Judaism, but it should be still the same God who wanted people to injure themselves.
Also, if you live as a monk,and not having family and sexual intercourse- but this way you get closer to God- by ignoring human needs... (In Judaism I know monks must not be so for longer than a month... and still- religious men are barely allowed to look at women, and they sin when they masturbate- too bad their body makes sperm anytime and nudges them and causes them suffering- double suffering- also with guilt and shame...)


Aaalright.
The fun stuff.
I believe the Jewish circumcision has a couple of different facets.
As you said, a sign of their agreement between God.
However, it also has certain... medical advantages... that prevent infection.
It would also set them apart and make you different from the surrounding nations.
For monkhood... Paul briefly touches about this. He mentions how, if you wish to get closer to God, it may be best for you to do it by yourself. However, he knew that God created you with these... organs, to reproduce. He also says that when you sin sexually, you sin against your own body.
When you masturbate, aren't you lying to your body? God gave them those body parts to use all right, but to use correctly, in the sanctity of marriage.

Quote:
 
And how does it go toegther with, do what you want, follow what you believe- but if you do a,b,c (like I wrote above, not like murdering, or hurting others- which is logical, acceptable...) you will go to hell because you're a sinner?


Now... this is a bit where our beliefs will differ extremely. In Isaiah, it mentions how your faith is as dirty rags.
(I've been told that the word for dirty rags is the same for used menstrual cloths, is this true?)
What Isaiah, presumably under the guidance of God, is trying to say here, is that you can serve God to your utmost, to help the poor, set free the chains of injustice, be Gandhi. Yet, you still aren't perfect.
Perfection is the ultimate goal. An unachievable goal, that you can only achieve through Jesus.
In Christianity atleast.

Quote:
 
And also if people "excuse" it with stories (have you heard about Lilith as an explanation for why not masturbating?)


No, I haven't, it would be interesting to hear.

Quote:
 

And Concolor- it was also by the order of what happened... that's how it started- more spiritually... and about hell- yes. They say God is very merciful... while- by other things people say in his name... many people I know would be more understanding and loving than him...


I know that perspective is a strange thing. What looks like a square to one, looks like a rectangle to another.
Actually. I've got an idea.
I think I know someone who can sum up my thoughts better.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html

Johnathan Edwards.

It's a really long sermon, and pretty depressing, so if you get bored, I suggest skipping to the end.
And now you have an extraordinary opportunity is where the good stuff starts.

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Concolor
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@Luemas:
Quote:
 
Alrighty... Let's get this wheelbarrow a turning. I did the same thing you did, but I looked at some dates. The earliest dates(according to Wikipedia) was 2100 BC. It also mentions 7th Century BC... but basically, assuming it was written around 2100 BC, Now, it mentions also in Wonderful Wikipedia, that Abraham was born somewhere around 1900 BC or so.
Abraham, being the descendant of Noah, About 13 times, if I remember correctly. So that would place the Flood myth atleast a couple hundred years before the gilgamesh.
The life of Abraham is basically as well (or poorly) documented as Gilgamesh himself, they are both mythical characters. The thing about myths is that their details (or entirety for that matter) is not necessarily true. Much like the Norse myths explaining how large rocks are placed randomly in valleys due to trolls throwing them there, or the Biblical creation myth alluding that the earth is only a few thousand years old. And so their claims of dates, ages and lineages should not necessarily be taken at face value. But that is besides the point, because the whole issue is that it is the same myth. The root is the same. The myth was taken into both Hinduism and the Jewish tradition, and both would of course later claim to have some sort of ownership to the myth itself. These myths transcend the individual religions, just like the myth about the God-sons such as Horus, Hercules, Jesus, Haile Selassie, old Chinese emperors etc. It does not matter so much that the Horus-myth is older than the myths about Hercules; the point is that the concept is the same (and the similar properties of these myths are not only because they are inspired by each-other, but also because they fill the same purpose in our stories and societies).
Quote:
 
I believe the Jewish circumcision has a couple of different facets.
As you said, a sign of their agreement between God.
However, it also has certain... medical advantages... that prevent infection.
Surprisingly, it turns out that not cutting your penis is actually a better way of preventing infection than cutting it.
Quote:
 
It would also set them apart and make you different from the surrounding nations.
...which of course has been a great advantage to the Jewish people throughout history...
Quote:
 
When you masturbate, aren't you lying to your body?
Are you lying to your body when you think about eating apple pie?
Quote:
 
God gave them those body parts to use all right, but to use correctly, in the sanctity of marriage.
That rests on the assumptions that there is a God, that he is the God of the Bible, and that your interpretation of the Bible is correct. Furthermore, our bodies do a lot of stuff, are all of them signs from God? Females have a certain amount of eggs. If she does not get impregnated for everyone, then a potential life is wasted. Is this a sin?
Quote:
 
What looks like a square to one, looks like a rectangle to another.
A square is just a special case of a rectangle, but I get what you're saying.
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Luemas
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Quote:
 
The life of Abraham is basically as well (or poorly) documented as Gilgamesh himself, they are both mythical characters. The thing about myths is that their details (or entirety for that matter) is not necessarily true. Much like the Norse myths explaining how large rocks are placed randomly in valleys due to trolls throwing them there, or the Biblical creation myth alluding that the earth is only a few thousand years old. And so their claims of dates, ages and lineages should not necessarily be taken at face value. But that is besides the point, because the whole issue is that it is the same myth. The root is the same. The myth was taken into both Hinduism and the Jewish tradition, and both would of course later claim to have some sort of ownership to the myth itself. These myths transcend the individual religions, just like the myth about the God-sons such as Horus, Hercules, Jesus, Haile Selassie, old Chinese emperors etc. It does not matter so much that the Horus-myth is older than the myths about Hercules; the point is that the concept is the same (and the similar properties of these myths are not only because they are inspired by each-other, but also because they fill the same purpose in our stories and societies).


I understand the discrepancy you see with my claim to Abraham's name. It would have been more logical to look for dates on the old testament, and whatnot, but it was late at night, so hopefully I'm a bit more in control of my senses.

When I had to learn history, I remember that principally, they talked about cultural diffusion. Cultural diffusion was basically my teacher's favorite thing in the world, and the right answer. Always.
Now, the fact that they have a similar myth raises a few questions itself. As a myth, what are it's origins, and why did they who created it, desire to do so? People haven't changed much over the years, and they should've had a pretty decent reason as to writing said myth.
As my Chemistry teacher likes to say, "I'm not as much interested in answers, as in seeing your work. Seeing How you did it."
That makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote:
 
Are you lying to your body when you think about eating apple pie?


Yes, although I believe the principle of the matter is slightly different.
When you think about apple pie, you just make yourself suffer. Now I'm all for masochism, as long as you don't harm others.
However, when you even think sexually, you are doing exactly what I mentioned up there, degrading others. Real or Not.
I read this in a book called Paper Towns, "When you just like someone, you have an idea of what they are, but when you actually start dating them, it's like falling in love with someone else."
Paraphrase for justice.
When you masturbate, you form an idea about someone that's necessarily not true, and you deny them and yourself an honest chance to get to know them. It's not irreparable, but it misuses them and their individuality as a person, twisting it for your own desire and enjoyment.

Quote:
 
That rests on the assumptions that there is a God, that he is the God of the Bible, and that your interpretation of the Bible is correct. Furthermore, our bodies do a lot of stuff, are all of them signs from God? Females have a certain amount of eggs. If she does not get impregnated for everyone, then a potential life is wasted. Is this a sin?


Besides the physical impossibility of being impregnated for every single one, and the heck of a lot of insinuations that follow that, no.
Let's use metaphors.
Let's say you have a meat grinder. Does that mean you have to have ground beef every meal of the day? Just because you have something doesn't mean you have to use it.
Now, are you going to put diamonds in your meat grinder? No, because unless you have one hades of a meat grinder, all you're going to do is break it.
I'm not saying sex outside of marriage breaks it, but I think you get my point.
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Junior
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@Concolor, In this case you mean myth as in story with a moral instead of meaning myth as in fictitious fairytale, right?
Call it what you want
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Rose
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Okayy… long… long… long…
And I see you were commented, Luemas, lol, and you commented back- it took me so long answering I did not follow…
So maybe now there are some unnecessary parts. As in, maybe something I said was said before or answered. But I won't be able to find it now. You can just invite me to read your comment or anything else…
-First, about Noah's and Gilgamesh- yes, what you say is logical, but this information is from the bible itself (and it was not written in Noah's time, it was written later, about this time.)… although I'm also aware to the idea God wrote the Torah, so maybe by the religion it's earlier… but also by the religion the religion is true...
I still think it was written later… I think Gilgamesh's story did come before the bible's one, so I was taught- as far I remember. But I won't treat it as a fact if I hesitate now (that would be stupid), I will check this out again, maybe you're right.
(By the way- I know all the things I said from what I was taught in bible lessons of a non religious school. Since I don't have the books I studied from and since I start to forget, I won't take all I learnt as something obvious, when we're having this conversation. However, this school may be non religious, but it is also not anti-religious or pro- religious, and it uses both historical facts and religious explanation for things… anti-religious sites claim Gilgamesh was before, but I won't hurry to believe a site with a clear interest in atheism…)

-About the Leviathan- it was not only in Job.
There is a sort of contradiction in the bible, perhaps because it was not written by one person only.
In Psalms, God is being praised by the description of how he kills the Leviathan.
So that could be a nice praise for another god, but not for God. It shows it is taken from another story... an idea "adopted" from another story…
(Although in another part of Psalms- they say the Leviathan was made by God so God could play with it- which means, the opposite Idea- that should emphasize that God is not another god from another story, and that he's mightier…)
Same thing happens in Isaiah. My sister, who did not study what I did, said that maybe they describe how God kills the Leviathan to show the Leviathan is not as powerful as God…
Like when they emphasize in Genesis god created the Tannin (Alligator, if it was translated to English… Lol I translated the creatures' and biblical books names with Wiki's help… didn't find that one.) Anyway the Tannin- the alligator, was considered as a god back then, so when they say God created him they show the alligator is not a god.
So my sister suggested that saying God killed the Leviathan is a just another way to show the Leviathan is not a god as well… but… it doesn't make sense. Why would God kill him? Why would he kill him, especially when in another religion creatures who live in the sea are gods' enemies? So I was taught this is an example for when the bible "adopted" polytheism's ideas. (While in some other parts, it rejects these- but it still makes the bible look like plain stories from the past…)

-And about the Jewish circumcision again, referring to what you said (sorry I don't know how to do the quoting thing you do! I know this way it could be clearer)
Yes, I am very aware to the "advantages" in it. (I hear about it all the time; "research found that circumcision/ eating Kosher…" well, the truth it, about anything actually- if you look for it, you find it.)
And it is not perfect. First: of course you are not going to have Caries without teeth.
From other researches we learn it also damages. Too tired to look for it now, but if you'd really like me to, I will… but I have found another side to this thing.
You said it makes us different…
Gotta tell this thing… my religious Jewish friend is strictly against doing things that comes from another religion in basic or non Jewish. She took off the horn of a unicorn doll I gave her, she wouldn't like to hear anything about Harry Potter, etc. :)
Once my classmates wanted to do something (I'd say roughly something like meditation, but that's not it) that comes from a Japanese… I don't know if it's a religion, but a spiritual method... and they wanted to do it with another friend, of both of us.
My religious friend really wanted them to stop. Then one of them said: "but what is your problem, it's almost scientific… look, we only give her warmth, it's like I'd touch your hand and warm you up…"
And my religious friend asked her, "You want to warm her up? Then why won't you just give her a blanket?"
So it was supposed to make us different? There are many ways to do so, besides anything like self injury.

-And about masturbating- first, I must tell you that's a very pretty idea, it made me think about it and accept it a little bit.
I read somewhere by the way, the masturbating was not allowed in order to encourage people to marry quickly and have a lot of kids- like that it has a political background. I think I read it in the Atheist site, though…but that's only an idea…
(And by the way- sorry, I don't know Paul- please tell me who he is … I know he is from Christianity, but I don't understand in that much, and I'd like to know more.)
But maybe this "lying" to our body is better than letting it suffer? And how much is it actually possible to lie to your body? I know sometimes the body takes out the sperm trough wet dreams… so the body in this case is lying to itself?
You can also say people lie to our body when not masturbating. We ignore the body has needs. It's there, but we pretend it's not.
And also heard masturbating could be good since in this way you are less depended on others. This way you can have mature decisions of your own- without the body nudging... this way you could be more spiritual, less focused about your body…
.
-About the Hebrew word for dirty rags (I read you mentioned it before!) do you know what word? And by menstrual cloths, you mean pads for women? (If so, pads are pads, like in English. In modern Hebrew.)
Maybe it is so in ancient Hebrew.


-"Perfection is the ultimate goal. An unachievable goal, that you can only achieve through Jesus.
In Christianity at least."
(had to quote so you'd follow…) Okay. What about it? It's your answer for what I said about going to hell if not following specific rules, something that actually not really gives us choice to live as we want. (Like someone will say: you can choose eating a cake or a carrot. But if you won't choose the carrot, I will kill you and make sure the worst thing that could happen to you will happen. Do you really have a real choice over here? Of course you don't. You can choose dying- but that really doesn't count.)


-Lilith by Jewish Mythology (yes, Mythology- it is used to excuse Jewish laws I guess) is supposed to steal the sperm from people and make demon children with it. The more you masturbate, the more demons will be made because of you.
They say also it is dangerous for sons to go to their father's funeral, because his demon children would like to hurt him, since they go to the funeral as well…
Now, that's a mythic explanation, and maybe not all believe in it, but it exists. There may be many explanations of why not doing it besides that- but also if any of these are true, then why God did it this way?


-"I know that perspective is a strange thing. What looks like a square to one, looks like a rectangle to another."
Also true. But even if people can found compassion in some things, God- if he is merciful as said- must find this compassion as well. Because else that means people maybe even more good hearted than God itself. People are not stupid- they know the difference between good and bad- even by the bible. So they should know when something is bad. And many times they can still forgive. As that pretty saying, "Making a mistake is human- forgiving is Godly".
Still, people say in God's name, through religion, he won't forgive about things human may.
For example- committing suicide. Of course that's a wrong thing that should be avoided as much as possible. Religious people scare people who talk about suicide and say they will be punished in the afterlife. But would God have the heart to punish people like this in the other world, after they had a terrible time until they couldn't take it anymore? (Also knowing, people, naturally, want to stick in life as much as they can…) but that's only an example- there are many things that religions say in God's name about punishes in the afterlife, so actually no need to refer to this example specifically.
-Okay… about the Sermon.
No, I did not read it all, since it's too long, and since… from what I saw, it's not showing anything new- although I see it's about 20 pages, so maybe I miss something so you can quote it. I looked also at its end, by the way.
At the beginning, it gave a metaphor of how easy it's to God to overcome people, like human can crush a bug.
I know so many people, who can't. Morally- can't. Even if these animals are "harmful", like roaches- I know so many people that would spare them- you must know some as well- they'd take them out of the house, but won't try to crush them or to hurt in a way that is not necessary. So the metaphor or at least its spirit- seems to me wrong- and violent.
And he quoted from John ("He that believeth not is condemned already.") and said: "So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place;"
And that was also an example I considered using.
Again, each person has his beliefs, and again… my religious Jewish friend is talking about the Messiah that should come. I also read about it from things rabbis wrote, so from this point I am not sure from where what I am going to say came, but in both cases it's about people who know what they say.
So they say that when he comes, (with the war and the judgment day) Jewish people will be forgiven for their sins, because they are Jewish. And other people- only if they are really true good people (like, maybe in "saint" level…) they will be as well- and I remember they say it won't be much.
So I know this thing from both sides. That seems to be, from both sides plain wrong as well.
There are better people than I and there are worse. I don't understand why my religion matters. There is probably a better non-Jewish person out there that is even better than I- or the same- but not a really saint people as they say. I see this idea- wrong. Again, an attitude that even (no offence, I really don't mean to) disgusts me. It only sounds like a lame shot to make people change their religion to either way- from fear.
So let's assume there is Bob. Bob believes in a statue he made. Bob is a good person, he loves people, he respects them, he helps them.
He would be "nominated" to hell or to any other afterlife punishment? Because of something he believes in? That doesn't seem plain wrong?
And from what he said- again- how could be someone's place in hell? I could accept the idea it's never a person's place in hell, but there are some parts when there is no choice, that from some divined reason, that's the best solution. <- that may sound a little bit more loving, but assuming first that's someone's place? To suffer for eternity?
If a person would hate another person. Maybe for him, it is well justified. But this person will lock the other person's up and hurt him as much as he can. Forever. Not staying human- because of his deeds. (you may say human is different from divined, but I think this word in here, is made up to separate from something worse- from something barbaric, animal like). Wouldn't he is as bad as the other person? Or maybe even worse? People won't see it as something Godly or positive. But they can always say he will get what he deserves in hell...
But that is something I less believe in- if I try to believe. In the bible they say God is angry because people are trying to be good with him- while they are not good with one another. He says he cares less if they pray when they sin against one another. So I could assume Bob should be O.K. Shocked a little bit, but O.K.
And still- can't just ignore what others say about the same God… in his name… and all other things that won't fit together with his image…
-And another thing…………. why does bible have many what that seems at first as "holes", contradictions etc… many holes. And it has so many explanations, different ones, which try to "close" these holes. While maybe there is another obvious answer waiting- that something is illogical over there. If it was human case, like something people are not afraid to doubt in- they may say: "Stop supplying excuses, yes, something's fishy over here." Or maybe you see no "holes" in religion?

And at last- sorry, sorry, and sorry. If I offended you or anyone else anywhere. I don't mean it. I believe people should live however they want- as long nobody gets hurt.
I knew obviously that I may have answers to the "logical spiritual" part. That's the most relevant part, because there is no point talking about the logical non spiritual part over here. In the logical spiritual part- I keep arguing with myself. Since I am now supporting more the point of views I shared, I am looking for other point of views here- other answers that will come against. You may notice I won't only show one side of something if I have another side I'm aware to and accept in a way… so if you found anything here like attacking your religion- and I hope not- don't take it personally. Actually I think I may give religious answers to atheist people when they come against religion… although as the time goes on, it happens less- going out of answers...
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Luemas
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Sometimes.... I fell like I'm getting a bit double teamed.
And also, I realize it's somewhat ignorant for me to give you christian theology, and expect you to think about. My error.

I don't know what Psalm you're talking about with Leviathan.
But I found Psalm 74.
It mentions killing the Leviathan.
I find it interesting how he puts that in there, while all the other verses are somewhat contradictory. What I mean by that is, it says how he dries up the rivers, and makes new springs.

14 It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan
and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert.

That's the specific verse. Now... among the oxymoron's... I would have to say...
What I know, is that Leviathan, is a sea creature. Giving him as food to the desert, is fulfilling the oxymoron style of the writing.

It also mentions it in Isaiah, and it appears to be metaphor, in Isaiah 27:1. It talks about how God is going to strike down the enemies of Jacob, and even the Leviathan, the big strong leviathan, (Which God talks about in Job being so powerful, a creature without equal, and he can destroy it.
It may just be an allusion to God's power. Also, in Psalms 104, it also talks about the Leviathan, but it mentions how even the fish of the sea, even the great Leviathan, goes to God for food.)
That should about cover Leviathan.

Now, I may not be exactly... a model Christian. But about the whole being different.
Have you ever heard of entropy? It's the second thermodynamic law, which basically states, everything goes from order to disorder. In other words, in context of ancient Israel, they were surrounded by a bunch of pagans. God, told them he didn't want them to worship them. By having them circumcise males, it would be a constant reminder. Every day when you eat, hey, I'm an Israelite. It would be a constant reminder to thank God for the wonderful bounty he gave you.

The reason why I said masturbating is lying to the body, because you are forcing your body to simulate the actions of sexual reproductions in order to elicit an emotion. It's also addicting. And addictions are... bad.
I can imagine that it might have been easier, because most Jews got married off young, as did many societies.
Paul is a bit of a tale. He was a Pharisee around the time of Jesus, who persecuted the early church, until after a shocking vision on the road to Damascus, where he saw Jesus. Jesus asked him why he was persecuting him, and Paul has a bit of an about face. He was blinded, and had to seek the help of a Christian. The Christian in Damascus helps him pray, and he gets the ability to see again, and goes on to write 2/3 of the New Testament.
He wrote a major part of the doctrine that most of the modern day church practices.

That's kind of concise, right?


Perfection.
You can choose dying...
Ever hear the phrase, Give my liberty, or give me death?
I once heard an interesting spiel. The story goes that if everyone knew how great heaven was, they would believe in Jesus. But then there are the people who don't accept God, and how do you know that if you don't accept God now, you won't in Heaven?

The perspective

God, can, and will forgive anything you do. When you punch someone in the face, and then realize, "Wow, that was stupid" What do you do?
You say you're sorry. (Sorry if it seems somewhat demeaning, it was the first metaphor that came to mind.)
Also, about suicide. I only believe there are two fates in the afterlife, heaven and hell. Heaven, is eternal blessing. Hell, is eternal punsihment. Does committing suicide condemn you to Hell? No. It no more condemns you to Hell than killing someone. (For my religion, it's refusing Jesus Christ that sends you to Hell, but that's another point.)

The sermon.
You know, I find myself agreeing a lot with what you say.
You said you know people who can't bring themselves to kill bugs. What if I told you, God is one of those people, who can't bring themselves to kill bugs?
He does everything he can to try and save them, bring them out of his house, find a new home for them.
But eventually, their house is overrun with bugs.
And then, he has no choice but to call an exterminator.
According to Johnathan Edwards, your reason for being alive is because God wants you alive. He wants you to be saved, and he's trying so hard.

Also, that's one of my grievances with his sermon, is that it's a scare tactic mostly. It has good theology, but fear isn't the right reason to be a Christian, or a Jew.
But as you mention, with the saint, it is my belief, that yes there are good people, but everyone is a mixture of good and evil.
In Christianity, there is no way to earn Heaven. One of the founding principles is faith, not works. Nothing you could ever do could save yourself. However, I feel that sometimes, as Christians we take this to far, and don't do works(But that's another story)

Or maybe not. There are people who have done the most unholy, sinful, wretched, heinous, evil, and wrong things, in the name of God. People who have used it as an excuse to hurt someone else, or to profit themselves.
One of my pet peeves are facades. And those who misuse the name of the Lord...

Dante was atleast partially right about Hell... There are varying degrees of punishment.

(Sorry if this is really long, and also, sorry if I offend you, I realize, I'm certainly not the most tactful with words, or concise. If you don't want me to comment anymore on your thread, I'm ok with that.)
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Concolor
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@Junior: What's the difference?

@Lue: Earning a place in heaven by faith is still earning it. You must pay the ticket of getting a particular faith and forsaking all others.

Also: I don't willfully kill bugs, yet my house is not overrun by them. Violence and punishment is not the only path to peace.

Finally: If God really was there and wanted me to get saved he could have made it a whole lot easier. And having his followers laying out guilt trips ain't working ;)
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Luemas
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Quote:
 
@Lue: Earning a place in heaven by faith is still earning it. You must pay the ticket of getting a particular faith and forsaking all others.


How to put it... let's say earning a place in heaven is like... the lottery. You get a ticket, and voila, it's the winner. Did you work for the money? Did you earn it? You got it, by sheer luck. You didn't have to slave for couple dozen thousand hours to make a few million. You just got it.
Faith is kind of like that.
Sort of.
Quote:
 
Also: I don't willfully kill bugs, yet my house is not overrun by them. Violence and punishment is not the only path to peace.


You'd probably be surprised Concolor. Bugs have a tendecy to get in, whether you want them to or not. Let's put it this way. You know how bats swoop down at you randomly sometimes? It's not because they're trying to scare the living daylights out of you, but because they know there are bugs there, that you can't see.
You house is overrun with bugs. You just can't see them, be they hiding in the walls, the attic, the basement, you name it.

Quote:
 
Finally: If God really was there and wanted me to get saved he could have made it a whole lot easier. And having his followers laying out guilt trips ain't working ;)


As I said before, guilt trips aren't the best way to win people over. The sermon in question was meant for a Puritan raised group of people, who had a facade of Christianity.

If God wanted to get you saved, he would have made it easier? Made you saved already from the beginning? That negates your free will.
How don't you know, that this forum, may be God's act to try and save you?
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