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| Why I don't believe in God.; Me taking my spleen out... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 15 Sep 2010, 06:32 PM (1,308 Views) | |
| Concolor | 18 Sep 2010, 12:33 PM Post #16 |
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Barabbas
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I'm saying there are much more effective ways of doing it. And making me saved allready from birth does not affect my free will. If God knows my fate then he has sealed my destination the moment he created me. And if that is not a problem for my free will, then neither is creating me as a believer. Squashing bugs does not help against the bugs in the walls either. Cashing a lottery-ticket is a lot less labourous than actually working for the money. But you still have to do it to get your prize |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Junior | 18 Sep 2010, 05:41 PM Post #17 |
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Brother-in-law of Soul
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One of them is less demeaning to my character |
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Luemas
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19 Sep 2010, 01:14 PM Post #18 |
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DELICIOUS!
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Ever hear the saying, those who have been forgiven much love much? If you were a believer from the very start, what reason would you have to love God? And as I mentioned earlier, you don't know the future. You don't know how God will work in your life, how things will change. For the lottery thing, I'm thinking under the, don't work don't eat principle, and also, I'm probably a bit more capitalist than you. Do you really deserve the money? I would say no. |
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I think I'm Crazzzy. I think your crazy. I think your crazzzy... probably. | |
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| Concolor | 19 Sep 2010, 02:22 PM Post #19 |
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Barabbas
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@Luemas:That sounds a lot like the old saying "if you give people money they'll be your friends". Love should not be a payback for forgiveness. Oh I'm sure a good Christian like you could think of some? How about the obligation of loving him due to him creating me? I've heard that one before True, I don't know the future. all I can do is extrapolate from past experience and knowledge. And from the statistics of the National Academy of Sciences alone, I'd say that chances are pretty high that my education has bought me a one-way ticket to non-belief. Probably, I'm adogmatic to both religious and political ideology. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Concolor | 19 Sep 2010, 02:23 PM Post #20 |
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Barabbas
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@Junior: None of them have to be demeaning to you character. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Rose | 19 Sep 2010, 03:42 PM Post #21 |
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Zombie
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Okayyy… from now on I think I will be more specific. This means I won't give more than one subject in a message, until I'm answered. I think it's a better way, easier to follow- since other questions' answers make more questions around it- and it all comes out mixed up... Let's talk about afterlife punishment again with the Jewish and Christian religion's examples. I am so identified with it, so maybe this example will be the most relevant for me. Okay… I know both Christian and Jewish stands about why their religion is the true one and why people should follow it. Correct me, if you think I am wrong… Christian people say the Jewish religion was the true religion, until Jesus (is he a sort of the Messiah, or Messiah would be someone else in the future?), the son of God, came to our world, and showed us a new way to follow- the way God wanted us to follow. The people who stayed Jewish refused to follow this way and went on another one, the wrong one. They are now lost. (Metaphorically, since we talk about ways…) If there's anything to add, like that Jews were responsible to Jesus' death (or anything else- I won't be offended, really don't worry about it) tell me. Jewish people say Jesus can't be the son of God (I wrote about it before) and that he is a regular man who sinned since he claimed to be the son of God or let himself to be claimed so. Christian people started a new religion out of it... and left the true religion. If you will ask rabbis to change their religion they would strictly refuse, because that means they will believe in Jesus- a simple human being- as God, they will abandon all rules God gave them (Like Kosher etc…)- and change their life for sinful one- pretty Pagan- like one. At the bottom line, Judaism believes, from their bottom of their heart, the Christianity is wrong- while, the Christianity believes- in the very same way- the same. The sermon claims, and it is not the only one, I know- that Jewish people may go to hell for their religion. While rabbis tell non-religious Jews to start behaving more like religious Jews, because God is angry that they don't watch for the religious Jewish rules- and start behaving like other religions, that sin. So. How could God punish, no matter from which side- anyone, for their beliefs? And especially to a place like hell- the eternal punishment, the worst thing exists. And especially, no matter which religion- the people were good people. How could he even consider that? If he took a specific rabbi and let him born as a Christian… or maybe let him born in an atheist environment… when they believe they are right. They believe so hard that they could touch it… no need to say that they will stick to it, and won't be looking for another religion if they believe theirs is true. Anyway… this "rabbi" could that easily believe Judaism is wrong and any other religion is true… How could that sermon say someone belongs to hell for his religion? How could rabbis say so? (Just read that there is hell for moral-yet-sinning people and hell for immoral sinners in Judaism… so that means, also in Judaism- that religion counts.) They say it in the name of God. So God will send anyhow someone to hell for not choosing the "true" belief, disregarding how moral they are generally? Isn't it an example of a very harsh punishment for something that seems to us- humans who know the difference between good and bad- wrong? Here I bet both sides will find compassion to the other side. Because that's not only about religion, that's human-wide… so God, by what people say in his name- won't? By the way- I also chose this example because it includes the religious rules. If you are Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim and you don't follow the religious rules, you are still nominated to hell, by that religion. Like the other religions, since they also obviously don't follow the other religion's rules. |
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| Junior | 20 Sep 2010, 07:17 PM Post #22 |
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Brother-in-law of Soul
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@Concolor, I dunno, claiming that everything I believe in is a lie kind of hurts my feelings. |
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| Concolor | 21 Sep 2010, 12:08 AM Post #23 |
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Barabbas
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@Junior: well, by being a Christian you not only claim that what I believe is a lie, you're also implying that I deserve eternal torture because of it. So right back at ya I guess
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Afalstein | 14 Nov 2010, 10:12 PM Post #24 |
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Mountain Gnome
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Hell is actually a very simple doctrine to understand. Sin is differentiation from God's law. God is infinitely just and lawful, so naturally he must punish it. Because he's infinite, his punishment is infinite. Simple math. However, as you point out, God is also loving. Infinitely loving, in fact. How can an infinitely loving God send all people to hell? Answer: he can't. But he can't NOT, because he's infinitely lawful, and to simply not send them there would render God's law meaningless. The solution to the paradox is Christ, who as God, can take all of God's infinite punishment at once. So God's Law is satisfied, because punishment has been delivered, and God's love has been satisfied, because he took it. HOWEVER. If the people don't believe Christ exists in the first place, how exactly is he supposed to save them? Or if people don't believe they need saving? God COULD perhaps simple make all men believe in him, but then man's belief would be meaningless. He gives man a choice in the matter, and therefore naturally some go to hell instead of being saved. God doesn't send people to hell because they were sinful, people go to hell because they don't believe in (or don't want) salvation. Edited by Afalstein, 14 Nov 2010, 10:14 PM.
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| cheesebug | 15 Nov 2010, 09:10 AM Post #25 |
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Ultimate Threadkiller
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http://masochistic-goddess.tumblr.com/poetry "You will hear thunder and remember me, and think: she wanted storms." | |
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| Deleted User | 15 Nov 2010, 01:33 PM Post #26 |
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@Afalstein !!! how's is going mate ? Nice n simple,what do you personally beleive about the ppl who have never heard of Jesus? Does it bring urgency to the great commission or do you have an interpretational loophole ? (note-i asked personally) God of course has it all covered-but Ive heard a few whoopers in relation to this.... |
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| Afalstein | 15 Nov 2010, 04:37 PM Post #27 |
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Mountain Gnome
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@Arazec: Good to see you too. My personal belief about those who have never heard of him is that they are also lost. Cosmically, all men secretly know of God, even if they don't admit to him or know his precise nature. Again, how is God supposed to save those who don't believe in him? So yes, it gives urgency to the Great Commission. If it didn't work that way, missionary work would be counter-productive. Might as well leave it alone, really. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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| Concolor | 15 Nov 2010, 06:03 PM Post #28 |
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein: Your last point leads to some interesting conclusions. Do you believe that every person at every point in history has somehow been completely aware of the precise nature of God? Does this mean that people in times and parts of the world that have never been in contact with the Christian church also have known? Does this mean that people all over the world have, by themselves, become Christians according the particular type that you would judge to be the correct kind of Christianity? Should this not make Christianity equally distributed throughout the world, or at least show clear signs of several points of origin? Why are there so few that actually manage to grasp the true Christianity, and so many gravitate equally strong to completely wrong faiths? |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Concolor | 15 Nov 2010, 06:22 PM Post #29 |
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein:Why didn't he make it just not to punish sins, and just forgive people? He's God, he sets the rules, he didn't need to set them like that. Being infinite does not mean that everything he does has to be infinite. In that case everything he made must be infinite as well, and my computer seems rather finite from here. Are you suggesting that he is bound by some law that forces him to pass out infinite punishments? Then who put that law in force? There is an easier way out of this. and that is to say that such a God cannot exist. So why do people still go to hell? And if God created a world with beings who broke a rule he made and was judged to a punishment he commanded and then he punished himself to fulfill the injustice that his own creation had done unto himself, why didn't he just say "my bad" and forgive himself right away? By snapping his fingers and saying "Bam! You're saved! Even if you never believed in me, I'm infinitely forgiving and so you're all saved without having to work for it. Jesus died for everyone's sins, even your sin of not believing, so you're all saved." Either God has made rules for you to follow, and the path to salvation is to follow them, or you're saved by grace alone and no rules need be followed. Why? Seems to me like we'd be better of not having that choice. |
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Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through. Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy!
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| Afalstein | 15 Nov 2010, 10:48 PM Post #30 |
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Mountain Gnome
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@Concolor Oh? You'd like to be brainwashed and compelled to believe things without thinking them through? I would have thought otherwise, given your arguing style. Granted, there IS the question of whether being brainwashed in the truth is really "brainwashing," but still, faith is meaningful only if it truly comes from the person. Lewis considered that all men who truly wanted to be saved, were. As in, the main reason Satan is in hell, is simply that he doesn't want to be in heaven. Certain atheists have made similar statements. Would heaven be heaven to people who didn't want to be there? Ah well. Metaphysics. Question you were asking earlier: The concept is known as "natural light," essentially meaning that all men, deep down, do have a sense of right and wrong, and of the God who created both. Similar, I suppose, to the idea of self-actualization, where the TRUE self of a person is always good, you just need to dig deep enough. This inherent knowledge is bolstered by the evidence seen in the world around us and the promptings of our own souls. However, souls and intuition make for shaky guides. Most religions are a way of trying to grasp the central message of God by codifying it and setting it down in writing. That's why all over the world, you have cultures with religions. All people know God exist, they just have trouble seeing him clearly. Do I believe that my faith is the perfect incarnation of what everyone is striving for? No. Nothing on earth is perfect, and my religion is no exception. It too is a twisted image of what God really is. BUT. I do consider it closer than any other alternative, because it's not merely based off hearsay and superstition. It's derived from the word of God, sent to earth, and teachings of his son, also sent to earth. This is when you'd ask the question, "How do you know it's the Word of God?" A fair question. Faith is a strong part of it, but there's more to it than that. Based on what I have seen of the world and of humans, the Bible is the one that meshes most completely with the evidence I see. There are other reasons--the Bible is a surprisingly coherent and poetic work for something constructed of so many different manuscripts, much of what it foretold has come to past, it's teachings have survived the test of time and helped to unite men all over--but that's the main one. A former agnostic-turned-Christian said "I believe in Christianity as I believe in the rising sun--not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." Hope that helps. |
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"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke | |
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@Afalstein !!! how's is going mate ? 
6:43 PM Jul 10