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Why I don't believe in God.; Me taking my spleen out...
Topic Started: 15 Sep 2010, 06:32 PM (1,306 Views)
Concolor
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Barabbas
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@Afalstein:
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Oh? You'd like to be brainwashed and compelled to believe things without thinking them through? I would have thought otherwise, given your arguing style. Granted, there IS the question of whether being brainwashed in the truth is really "brainwashing," but still, faith is meaningful only if it truly comes from the person.
Well, that's the part I don't really get: That faith is supposedly meaningful only if there are some who do not have it. I don't have a choice as to weather or not I have gravity, why did not God pass out faith in a similar matter? Most people of the world believe that food is necessary for survival in this world (even if we can choose not to believe this), why could not God use the same PR tactics he employed to make us believe in the survival-properties of food on the saving-properties of faith, and at least a whole lot more people would be saved? Because that's what he wants, right?
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Lewis considered that all men who truly wanted to be saved, were. As in, the main reason Satan is in hell, is simply that he doesn't want to be in heaven. Certain atheists have made similar statements. Would heaven be heaven to people who didn't want to be there?
For me personally, I would shamefully admit that an eternal reward in heaven would be worth more than my integrity and so if I actually believed in one of the versions of the afterlife-heaven concepts I would try to get there even if it means sucking up to some God who did not care to explain his ways. I would, however, not go a day in heaven without feeling the sting of so many of my friends and loved ones being tortured in Hell because they had the intellectual courage and integrity that I did not.
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The concept is known as "natural light," essentially meaning that all men, deep down, do have a sense of right and wrong, and of the God who created both. Similar, I suppose, to the idea of self-actualization, where the TRUE self of a person is always good, you just need to dig deep enough. This inherent knowledge is bolstered by the evidence seen in the world around us and the promptings of our own souls.
Interesting. I too believe that most people (apart from psychopaths etc.) have an intuitive concept of right and wrong, though I think the origin of this instinct is as natural as our tendency to not always choose the good.
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However, souls and intuition make for shaky guides. Most religions are a way of trying to grasp the central message of God by codifying it and setting it down in writing. That's why all over the world, you have cultures with religions.
They are shaky guides indeed, yet I would prefer the ever improving understanding that the scientific method allows for rather than to select one of the unchanging (in theory) religious set of dogmas.
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Do I believe that my faith is the perfect incarnation of what everyone is striving for? No. Nothing on earth is perfect, and my religion is no exception. It too is a twisted image of what God really is. BUT. I do consider it closer than any other alternative, because it's not merely based off hearsay and superstition. It's derived from the word of God, sent to earth, and teachings of his son, also sent to earth.

This is when you'd ask the question, "How do you know it's the Word of God?"
Touché, a Muslim scholar would give exactly the same reason for putting his faith in Allah, so how do I know which one of you are right?
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A fair question. Faith is a strong part of it, but there's more to it than that. Based on what I have seen of the world and of humans, the Bible is the one that meshes most completely with the evidence I see.
Interestingly, I think this is one of the best reasons I can think of for having a belief, or a set of beliefs. But would you then accept me having a world view with no Gods, based on what fits best with the evidence I see? And the Hindu, whose belief in Athman fits best with the world as he experiences it?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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I accept you having your own world view - its your free will Concolor- I beleive God made you a free moral agent- you can choose his true love for you.... or choose to reject him.

What i cant accept in this life is the string of hell for my family,friends,loved ones and the rest of mankind ! :sweat: :(

The Bible teaches that there is no sadness or suffering in heaven-we are told that speacifically (makes sense since its heaven :ermm: ) we being with God in Heaven, sounds to me that even our memory of sin cant co-exsist with God....anyway thats another topic....

So this life is where its at :thumbs: the opportunity you have to realise that neither your integrity or courage is enough and you need a Saviour

This life
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Concolor
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@ARAZEC:
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What i cant accept in this life is the string of hell for my family,friends,loved ones and the rest of mankind !
That sounds good :)
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The Bible teaches that there is no sadness or suffering in heaven-we are told that speacifically (makes sense since its heaven ) we being with God in Heaven, sounds to me that even our memory of sin cant co-exsist with God
So either our memories are wiped, or our hearts are hardened so that we do no longer care about the suffering of our friends and family?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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Concolor
20 Nov 2010, 08:44 PM
@Afalstein:
Quote:
 
Oh? You'd like to be brainwashed and compelled to believe things without thinking them through? I would have thought otherwise, given your arguing style. Granted, there IS the question of whether being brainwashed in the truth is really "brainwashing," but still, faith is meaningful only if it truly comes from the person.
Well, that's the part I don't really get: That faith is supposedly meaningful only if there are some who do not have it. I don't have a choice as to weather or not I have gravity, why did not God pass out faith in a similar matter? Most people of the world believe that food is necessary for survival in this world (even if we can choose not to believe this), why could not God use the same PR tactics he employed to make us believe in the survival-properties of food on the saving-properties of faith, and at least a whole lot more people would be saved? Because that's what he wants, right?
I didn't say it was meaningful only if some didn't have it. I tried that with a (Christian) friend once and he pointed out the same thing with Gravity. You could argue that an anti-gravity area WOULD make Gravity more interesting/clear, but you don't need one to know it exists.

What I said was that faith is meaningful only if it comes from the person, and not from an outside force. There's nothing remarkable about a serf following a knight because he's forced to, there IS something remarkable about a serf following a knight because he chooses to. *archaic example*

Technically, you could argue that God IS using the same approximate tactics he used for food in telling man he needs salvation. If you don't eat, you die. If you don't come to Christ, you die ETERNALLY. The last part just isn't evident until afterwards. But to be fair, God DID tell man at the beginning of time and provided a written record for everybody who wasn't there.

But that's a skewed view of the situation anyway. You don't come to Christ to avoid death, you come because you love him (for saving you from death). And again, that's meaningful only if it comes from you and not from God. Although, as you've probably observed me write in another thread, that's something of a false distinction.

To put it another way, how much fun would falling in love be if you FORCED the other person to fall in love with you?

Concolor
 
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A fair question. Faith is a strong part of it, but there's more to it than that. Based on what I have seen of the world and of humans, the Bible is the one that meshes most completely with the evidence I see.
Interestingly, I think this is one of the best reasons I can think of for having a belief, or a set of beliefs. But would you then accept me having a world view with no Gods, based on what fits best with the evidence I see? And the Hindu, whose belief in Athman fits best with the world as he experiences it?


I would have to accept it. I'd consider it self-destructive and misguided, but realistically there's nothing I can do to change it except argue. (aka, what I'm doing now).

If you're asking if I think it'd save either one of you, then no. Intentions may be good, but it's still wrong. You may think that a bridge looks sturdy, but no matter how firmly you believe that, it's still going to crash if it's badly built. I'm not saying that either viewpoint is necessarily stupid, just that it's wrong.
Edited by Afalstein, 6 Dec 2010, 02:21 PM.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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Afalstein :I would have to accept it. I'd consider it self-destructive and misguided, but realistically there's nothing I can do to change it except argue. (aka, what I'm doing now).



If you were treating the open wounds of accident victims you would realize that the most gentle, well-meaning touch could send patients reeling. You would not be offended if someone you were seeking to help lashed out in pain with almost involuntary action. You would half expect it. But imagine the confusion if the wounds were invisible and the person looked uninjured. Consider the further complication if in that person’s experience everyone who had tried to help (and how does he know you will be any different?) had in their ignorance done little but inflict pain.
That’s the norm for someone who is hurting inside.
Emotionally wounded people cannot help but be highly sensitive. Words hit them like whips. It is vital that they be treated verbally with the careful tenderness you would use if you were dressing gaping physical wounds. Once we understand the seriousness of emotional wounds, it’s surprisingly easy to employ the Christlike graces of turning the other cheek and using the soft answer that turns away wrath. When we realize an outburst is just the pain talking, we no longer take it to heart. Only a fool takes personally the actions of someone drunk with pain.
this is from -www.Net-burst.Net
Afalstein reminded me of all the different ways we love people-i reckon it goes something like this- pray for them first then love them in your God given way then beleive for them (srry if this isnt on topic !)





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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC: I agree, people can be highly sensitive about these things and can be highly offended if you question things they believe strongly in. My experience is the same as yours, that the only helpful thing is to understand that their outbursts should not be taken personally, but rather as a sign of some inner pain or frustration.
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Afalstein
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I suppose that is something I have problems with at times. I tend to be very blunt, especially when I feel very strongly about my position. Subtlety has never really been a strong point with me.

Belief is a strong point with most people, and understandably so. It directs the course of their lives (or it should), and much of how they view the world is wound up in it. It is very hard not to take attacks on such things personally.
"Evil Triumphs when Good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
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