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The NEW evolution debate; It's new :)
Topic Started: 3 Aug 2011, 04:30 PM (578 Views)
Concolor
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Barabbas
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So Lue mentioned having a debate on evolution again, so I thought "yay!". Then I remember a lecture I saw about debating evolution, where the lecturer said that scientists always make the same mistake when debating evolution: they think it's about science. He illustrated this with the following cartoon: Posted Image

He said that if this is the way people see evolution, then it does not matter what you say about the science, because people don't tend to take your arguments seriously if they percieve you as defending something that leads to racism and divorce. So I wanted to ask anyone who cares to answer:

What do you think of evolution?

What do you think would happen if a lot of people in your country or area believed in evolution?

What do you think about the picture and what it says?
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Luemas
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Well... being a creationist myself, I personally find that evolution, while perhaps plausible, is not the form that God used to create us. I've come to understand that people deserve their own opinion.


While evolution certainly can lead to racism, pornagraphy, abortion etc. I.E. Hitler.
Didn't see THAT one coming, aye? It doesn't necessarily. The same way being a muslim doesn't make you a terrorist. Or a Right Wing Christian. (Good for me)

DARN MY LACK OF CONTRARINESS.

But yes. Science wise, I'm more than willing to debate it.. with my faulty human skills.

Also, here's an interesting picture I found... Despite it sometimes causing me pain, I read a webcomic, written by a liberal atheist. Who would've thunk. This was his webcomic a couple of weeks ago:
Posted Image

Also, I've come to realize, that creationism doesn't matter as much anymore, as long as you believe that A) The bible is true B) Because it's true, you're a sinner C) Christ was born of a virgin and then, died for your sins, being perfect. Purity comes from purity. or something. Even though Mary was a sinner. And D) Christ rose again.

More or less.
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Concolor
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@Lue:
Quote:
 
Well... being a creationist myself, I personally find that evolution, while perhaps plausible, is not the form that God used to create us. I've come to understand that people deserve their own opinion.
Their own opinions, yes. But should they have their own facts?
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While evolution certainly can lead to racism, pornagraphy, abortion etc. I.E. Hitler.
Didn't see THAT one coming, aye? It doesn't necessarily. The same way being a muslim doesn't make you a terrorist. Or a Right Wing Christian. (Good for me)
Haha! But what do you mean by "lead to"? As in eating a banana could lead to genocide because I can eat a banana before I go out and kill loads of people? Or as in throwing glass shards out the window could lead to people on the streets below being cut by glass shards?

The difference here lies in what degree one can demonstrate a plausible mechanism that makes something sufficiently likely to have an effect that one would say that it could lead to that effect. Could you describe a plausible mechanism as to how holding the position that evolution is more probable than biblical creation leads to the aforementioned effects to a greater extent than eating a banana or reading "Winnie the pooh"?

Also I've seen more recent data showing acceptance of evolution in Norway as high as 90 %, but this can be affected by how the question is put. Anyway it's not necessarily correct just because a lot of people believe it - though I did find the plotting of GDP/capita vs acceptance of evolution quite interesting. Oh, and it totally reminded me of this really cool statistical visualization tool: http://www.gapminder.org/ (Click on Gapminder World )
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Luemas
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You have a point there. The whole butterfly flaps it's wings in Chicago, makes a tsunami in Australia.

Or something like that.
That is a really cool tool though.

In Hitler's case, I think it's more of the fact that he was bat- feces crazy, and found a way to rationalize it.

Also, Norway seems to be a pretty stable country. Maybe I should flee America and come there.
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@Lue:
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Also, I've come to realize, that creationism doesn't matter as much anymore, as long as you believe that A) The bible is true Because it's true, you're a sinner C) Christ was born of a virgin and then, died for your sins, being perfect. Purity comes from purity. or something. Even though Mary was a sinner. And D) Christ rose again.
I see. That's a dangerous path you're treading there.

I know that for you this is quite undramatic. A mere adjustment of your beliefs to be more consistent with the world that God created. None of the important parts of your faith (A-D) are affected at all.

But you must know that to me, this looks quite different.

To a non-believer, a religion is simply a construct of the mind supported by dogmas which are, essentially, not true. If I thought differently I would be a believer, but I'm not so this is how it looks to me from the outside. Since I as a non believer see these supports as non-true, it follows that a thorough examination and objective reflection on any one of these would show it to be unsound. A thoroughly rational person who examine the supports thoroughly over time and investigate different evidence for and against would therefore come to the conclusion that this particular support needs to be discarded (assuming that he manages to treat the matter perfectly rational and that the unbeliever is correct - which an unbeliever like me would tend to think).

So a single support is cast aside. What does it matter? The main ones are still there. There are loads of others as well: Miracles, power of prayer, personal relationship to God/Jesus, the historical correctness of the Bible, the wisdom/goodness of the Bible, prophesies, community and support from other believers, religious experiences etc.

The problem is once you start investigating any one of these supports - once "critical investigation and gathering of facts from all sides" is allowed - what stops you from examine any one of the others?

For a feelgood-christian, who does not care about objective reality - only the experience of being with God, these things make little difference as this tedious fact-checking serves them no purpose. But you care about truth. Your mind is geared towards facts and logic. You follow God because he's real, and it makes perfect sense to follow him, not because you need to construct some sky-daddy to keep you safe at night. All (or most of) the facts and information you've found points squarely towards God, and you simply draw the obvious and perfectly logical conclusion from this.

For me, as an unbeliever, you have shown a sign that when you find facts that contradict a belief you have you have the intellectual honesty to let that belief go. You have given yourself permission to inspect the supports of your faith.

From a believer's point of view this is entirely undramatic. The religion is fact based and the supports are sound. A thorough investigation will only serve to strengthen the supports and the confidence in them. For the unbeliever it looks quite different. The unbeliever sees only unsound supports that will all come down if thoroughly inspected. The only reason this does not happen more often, according the unbeliever's point of view, is because many believers do not check their supports (they simply trust in others who say they are sound), or check them half-assed or using only facts that come from sources intended to support these structures. That is why it is dangerous when a believer shows a willingness to let a support go. It could be the first of many supports to go. And when only the "main" ones remain, they carry a great load all by themselves. And again - from the perspective of the unbeliever - they are no stronger than the others.

This is not a prediction. I do not know your mind. I cannot see your future. I can only infer from what I've heard elsewhere: (WARNING: Long series of videos made by a former Christian who is not a Christian anymore. Loads of facts and information, may be boring to some) http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3?blend=2&ob=5#p/c/A0C3C1D163BE880A/0/mSy1-Q_BEtQ
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Luemas
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Well I'll try to watch it, but I have the attention span of a- hey roses!
But yeah, I will get around to it, hopefully. But the thing is for me, I went through a period of borderline agnosticism already. It was due to my sins, but now I feel my relationship with Christ is stronger than ever, and I readily accept any new information you may bring towards me, that will further my relationship with him, and advance my human knowledge.
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Concolor
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That's good to hear Lue, I'll keep that in mind :)

Also, what's your view on evolution?
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back up a bit !
concolor
 
The unbeliever sees only unsound supports that will all come down if thoroughly inspected
incorrect thats not per se,many an unbeleiver sees only unsound supports to find that when thoroughly inspected all hold up.
I didnt know God & had no relationships with anythng to do with God for a long time.
Declaring Jesus my Lord & Saviour was not something I did on impulse.
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Concolor
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@ARAZEC: Let's see, where to start...the perspective of the unbeliever will necessarily be different from the believer. That's kinda what my post was about. An unbeliever, like me, will necessarily think that the supports are unsound - otherwise I would not be an unbeliever. A believer, like you (actually Lue in my post, but hey), will necessarily think that the supports are sound.

The sentence that you quote describes the perspective of the unbeliever. It does not predict what will happen when someone investigates the supports for their belief - it describes what the unbeliever thinks of the solidity of these supports.

I thought that by including phrases like "from the unbeliever's point of view" in every other sentence I would make that clear. I was wrong, and should put even more emphasis on this next time.

I also find it highly interesting that you included personal descriptions of yourself and your relationship to your faith in your post. Have you ever had an argument about something that did not include yourself?

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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Ha,ha :ermm: I am not sure if Ive ever had an arguement about something that does not include myself ! Are you meaning a debate ?
Thinking....No,I cant say that I have an arguement that does in involve myself in a lot of ways that question as phrased is invalid....as the very premise requires I take part in an arguement :blink:

In my response I was merely pointing out the false dichotomy in your assertion of "The unbeliever sees only unsound supports that will all come down if thoroughly inspected" and using myself as a valid example to show quite clearly that to accept your statement is a hasty generalisation.

I have been an unbeleiver & I have been a beleiver,therefore I can describe what an unbeleiver and a beleiver thinks of the solidity of both supports.

You Concolor to my knowledge have never been a Christian,therefore untill you have been a Christian are unable to make a legitimate claim from experiance that you know what an unbeleiver "thinks" of both supports.

You can make assumptions but you can not claim that you know.

I find it interesting that you introduced an irrelevant personal question to the issue being discussed, so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the logical arguement I make when refuting your statement?....!










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Luemas
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Time to make this thread even more confusing by splitting concolor's intentions. My apologies.

Evolution, i find as a science, is... fallible, let's say. All worldview's, irregardless of religion or not, require faith. Evolution, I find, requires more faith than my view of progressive creationism. I do not hold it against anyone who believes in evolution, but I believe that God specifically created the creatures individual, and to their own kind.
Also, it is not "repeatable," or empirical, as my pastor would say ;) But I try not to rely solely on his words, but to think of my own, however crazy or illogical it may be.
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:ermm: am I a thread killer ?
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Luemas
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No, it's fine. Well, I mean, you could make a seperate thread, but I digress.
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