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God's image
Topic Started: 9 Oct 2011, 05:38 PM (2,122 Views)
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Natural selection is a consequence of self-replicating units, God being the prerequisite if not God what prerequisite do you suggest
concolor
 
Why would I suggest a prerequisite?

Im not saying you are-I am saying you dont consider God as a prerequisite-you have no evidence it cant be God & refuse to study Gods word t see if it be likely :ermm:

Back to abiogenesis-
abiogenesis-is based on mutations working toward favourable advancement as you described by the process of natural selection
concolor
 

Really? Why would that be how abiogenesis happened? The transition from non-replicating units to replicating units could have been a lot of things, but natural selection is something that happens* When did I say that they had to be complex? In that case I must apologize for the misunderstanding. They need only to replicate. No complexity needed beyond this.
Those "other things" that "just happen" isnt a very good explanation-you make scientific enquiry & fill in the blanks disregarding the "cause" isnt that just a little too blase? The very process of replicating a cell is complex and you cant down play it saying they "only" need to replicate ! Concolor -just try replicating yourself a leg or arm or spontaniously clone yourself....
concolor
 

Well it's hard to come by evidence of extremely microscopic chemicals from billions of years ago. I guess we could always blame it on the geologists? Abiogenesis is a very young scientific field, and though there are many hypotheses made, they are hard to test without a planet to test it in and billions of years to test it
Well if you are consistent in that view scientific so called evidence isnt applicable in dating so how do you know how many "billions of years " far back you can go & have reliable information ? You cant just discount God if you cant know for sure then as that goes againest your very first premise as an atheist ....? :ermm:
concolor
 
You should update your sources: Since then we've found amino acids in comets
Thats great but what have comets got to do with single celled living organisms just apppearing without cause or reason? Posting a link without explaining its point & relevance to your disscussion is boring Concolor-I know you like to do it but it doesnt give your arguement credibility its like me saying God exsists heres my evidence kinda a little pointless huh ?



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Concolor
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Barabbas
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@ARAZEC:
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Im not saying you are-I am saying you dont consider God as a prerequisite-you have no evidence it cant be God & refuse to study Gods word t see if it be likely
Firstly I HAVE studied both the Bible and other religious texts, but more importantly I have studied religions that actually are (which are often far away from the literal interpretation of the books).

You have no evidence that tiny, golden fairies are not the prerequisite for evolution - why are you not considering that as an option? Why are you not criticizing me for not considering that as an option?

If evolution by natural selection needs no more prerequisites than diversity, heredity and differential reproduction - why would I add one? It does not matter to me if this superfluous "prerequisite" is cosmic eggs, leprechauns, ancient architects, Gods or magic.
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Those "other things" that "just happen" isnt a very good explanation
Interesting that you can tell that the various suggestions for mechanisms behind abiogenesis are "not very good explanations" before I list any single one of them :)
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you make scientific enquiry & fill in the blanks disregarding the "cause" isnt that just a little too blase?
What "blanks" am I "filling" and how? I am talking about evolution through natural selection, which describes how life changes and develops, and I pointed out that this is not the same field as abiogenesis which explores how life started. If you switch from talking about evolution to talking about abiogenesis without addressing my points on evolution, I will be forced to assume that you have no further arguments against evolution and that you accept it as a fact. Since this seems unlikely - it would be nice if you chose a topic and sticked to it rather than running off to another topic when the evidence against your position is stacked too high.
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The very process of replicating a cell is complex
The process of replicating a modern cell is complex. If you assume that the most primitive beginnings of life was exactly similar to modern life, then you are not arguing against evolution - you are simply stating an assumption that evolution does not occur. Well, I already knew that you don't think it occurs - what you need to do is to form an argument in favor of your position.
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you cant down play it saying they "only" need to replicate
I'm trying to make it clear that the process of replication itself needs not be as complicated as in modern cells, just because our modern cells are complex and therefore have a complex way of replication.
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just try replicating yourself a leg or arm or spontaniously clone yourself
Again, I'm the result of billions of years of evolution - don't expect me to behave exactly like my primitive ancestors.
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Well if you are consistent in that view scientific so called evidence isnt applicable in dating so how do you know how many "billions of years " far back you can go & have reliable information ?
I don't know what this sentence means, but we have various ways of dating things very far back into history with high accuracy.
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You cant just discount God if you cant know for sure
Yes I can. That's the whole point. I can't know for sure that the universe will not explode if I touch the floor - yet I can safely discount it as I have no reliable evidence that this is the case. I can't know for sure if not all people I meet are zombies or carefully programmed robots made to look and act like humans - yet I can safely discount it as I have no reliable evidence that this is the case. I can't know for sure that there's no personal, supernatural deity that has created all of existence (including it's own) - yet I can safely discount it as I have no reliable evidence that this is the case.
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as that goes againest your very first premise as an atheist
All you need to call yourself an atheist is to live your life without the assumption of a personal, supernatural deity - regardless of why.
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Thats great but what have comets got to do with single celled living organisms just apppearing without cause or reason?
Nothing. Just like single celled living organisms just apppearing without cause or reason has nothing to do with evolution or abiogenesis. (Actually it sounds a bit more like things appearing by miracle)
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Posting a link without explaining its point & relevance to your disscussion is boring Concolor
If you didn't get my explanation the first time, I'm more than happy to spell it out for you in more detail: You claimed that "abiogenesis offers no evidence on how life came from no life other than stanely Miller & Harold Urey testing Oparins hypothesis" - where they made the building blocks of most types of life: amino acids. I showed you that there is other evidence as to how the building blocks of life could be present on the earth - by introduction from space via comets.

And the link you gave would be highly relevant in a discussion about biblical sayings.
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woah woah woah Im not saying that evolution does not exsist
Im just not atributing evolutionary processes as the origin of human beings-thats where we differ Concolor.
I think its God that created Life and speacifically Human beings you think that God creating Life or human beings is impossible because you claim that God does not exist .

concolor
 
If evolution by natural selection needs no more prerequisites than diversity, heredity and differential reproduction - why would I add one? It does not matter to me if this superfluous "prerequisite" is cosmic eggs, leprechauns, ancient architects, Gods or magic.

to test a hypothesis to gain greater scientific knowledge via experimental enquiry perhaps ? in the search for the "evidence" you require as a premise to your conclusions?
concolor
 
You have no evidence that tiny, golden fairies are not the prerequisite for evolution - why are you not considering that as an option? Why are you not criticizing me for not considering that as an option?
because there are 3 basic peer reviewed & agreed upon prerequisites for the theroy of evoulution via Natural Selection are-
1)Individuals have different traits.
2) Offspring tend to have the same traits as their parents (traits are heritable).
3) Traits determine individual’s fitness.

How can you account for individuals having different traits via evolution thru Natural selection if the prequisite is that individuals have different traits to begin with ?

So there exsists a need to either add something.... or claim that certain things just have always exsisted unchanged -God claims to have always exsisted unchanged...I dont know enough about cosmic eggs to comment & based on my reasearch of magic, & leprechauns I would say its not likely & "ancient architects" would be highly hard to comment on untill we agree on a definition.








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im really sorry for the double post but had to add this EXTRADINARY ADMISSION...OF LACK OF LOGICAL REASONING !
concolor
 
All you need to call yourself an atheist is to live your life without the assumption of a personal, supernatural deity - regardless of why.


DICTIONARY definition of "assumption" -Definition of assumption in the Online Dictionary. Meaning ... Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof.

Why then Concolor do you as an Athiest look for evidence if not for gathering proof ?-when you just told us that as an athiest all you need is to live your life accepting as true that which is WITHOUT proof !

I assert again, my previous statement that it takes as much if not a great deal more faith to be an Athiest than it does to be a Christian.

oh & yeah about that experiment -Ive already demonstrated the insignifigance of in my comments on that much publisised "scientists create life in a test tube experiment" but in response to this...
concolor
 
where they made the building blocks of most types of life: amino acids

1.So what ? I can make a sort of type of house if you give me bricks & mortar
2.The resulting Amino Acids could in no way self replicate as they lacked the very important "prerequisite" required of ALL KNOWN & OBSERVED & SCIENTIFICALLY AGREED UPON ability required of all LIVING organisims SIMPLE and COMPLEX to enable replication being organizational intelligence to for want of better words -sort- L-handed Amino Acids
3.Its now universally accepted with-in the SCIENTIFIC community that the gasses etc... they began with were way off the mark & in no way a accurate representation of what was present at the time this spontanious & magical & sci fi science leap to self replication occurred !
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Calmador
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Vampira7426
13 Oct 2011, 06:41 PM
Lue- Yes, Cheezy and I have, but I'd like to tell you that Cheezy is ALSO bisexual. I liked girls way before I liked boys. I tend to date more guys than girls, but I do date both. Not at the same time, obviously.
So I'd appreciate it if you didn't try and jump to conclusions about my attractions and/or thoughts on genders.

Concolor- I completely agree with you.

Lue again- I have to agree with Concolor, if god knows everything already, past, present, future, everything has been layed out for him to know, therefor we don't actually have free will, we follow a path he knows we are destined to follow. We don't have a choice to change that path because that would have been part of the path set for us.
See what I'm getting at?

Babaylan- No, I'm not lesbo, I'm bisexual. A lot of people think that we make the choice to like the same gender. Not true. Think like this. A killer chooses to kill his victims. Someone who steals chooses to steal that item. Homosexuals do not choose, it is simply an emotion, or rather, an attraction we can't control. We don't look at someone and debate to ourselves if we're going to choose to like that person or not, it's just like you liking a guy.
Last time I checked... Bisexuality is clearly almost comppletely accepted as a choice among everyone, even non-Christians, and even bisexuals themeselves define themeselves as self made bisexuals.

Another thing about sexuality is that clearly there are cases that people have changed from being gay, bisexual... with Christian counselors/psycologists... basically what Im saying is that I can talk to someone for years into changing thier hair color with my words as influence but it won't happen because words don't do that cause it genetic and I can try to convince you to change your skin color with my words as the influence but it wont..... but however God using people can change you from being bisexual, or gay with his words because it's choice.

Lastlty, my professor in my Anthropology class, an extremely liberal teacher, PHD.... told me so herself.

That's it, end of discussion.
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Concolor
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Yeah, anyone would be chance-less to argue against such massive amounts of empirical evidence that you just put forth :D

But, this dude I know who is like SUPER Christian told me that there is no God, so that kinda seals the deal right there ;)
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Luemas
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Haha. Nice to meet you Calmador, but as you'll soon find, discussions are rarely ended when we want them to.
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Calmador- Uh, no. It is most definitely not a choice to be bisexual. You don't simply decide that you're going to like girls, it comes naturally. Oh really? From who have you heard who said "Yeah, I just went bisexual/lesbian/gay because I woke up this morning thinking 'This might be fun!'" ? Because yes, you can say that, experiment to see if you actually are homosexual, but that doesn't MAKE you homosexual. Of course people can switch from being straight to bisexual/gay/lesbian, but that doesn't mean it's because they just decided one day that they were just gonna try a different sex to experiment, and they weren't really into the same sex. You have to be attracted to the same sex to be homosexual.
And I beg to differ. Christians may believe that there is a god and they can change people's minds and etc. , but can you prove to me there IS a god? Solid evidence, right now? And if god made us in his own image, why would he change us again? And then there's the issue of free will and everything.

Welcome to the forums. ;)
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Christians may believe that there is a god but God can change people's minds and etc ;)

but can you prove to me there IS NOT a god? Solid evidence, right now?

the religion ATHEISM is a huge jump of faith.....
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Concolor
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Can you prove to me that there are no invisible gnomes in the building next door that kill a kitten each time you eat an apple?

No?

Better stop eating apples!

To reject the belief in these gnomes is a huge leap of faith!
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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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Midst Of Vampy
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Arzy- Yet you've given ME no proof of a god, why believe in something that you can't even prove?
And of course you can't prove he DOESN'T exist, but it's like being innocent until proved guilty. ;)
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Luemas
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Actually, if he doesn't exist, it should be rather simple to prove that point. All you have to do is make a very solid argument with no loopholes.

And in order to find out if those gnomes are killing people, then you should go in the building next door and eat an apple, and find out.

God made us in his image, but sin corrupted that image. Just like sin has corrupted everything else, except Heaven and God. So yes, people can be attracted to the same sex. They have no more control over their bodies than any other human still stuck in sin. A pathological liar can no more stop lying, than a homosexual can stop being homosexual. It is all sin. And the only way to be free of it is through the saving grace of God.
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Concolor
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But the gnomes will move if they see you coming, just like the Gods of Olympus moved when we climbed the mountain. And the God of the sky moved when we searched it. And when we searched the natural world for evidence using logic and science, the Gods moved on to the supernatural world.

But the gnomes are still out there. I know because I speak to them. You wouldn't call me a liar or a fool would you?
Life is beautiful, love heals, people come through.

Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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You know you guys were right
To reject the belief in these gnomes is a huge leap of faith! :D yeah ive been talking to them for the last fortnight and they had a msg for you conc & vamps

Spoiler: click to toggle


oh ive missed this place....

O.k so now we agree that both religions of Atheism & Christianity require HUGE LEAPS OF FAITH thats been conceded right ?

so here we are folks all innocent untill proven guilty...
What then isnt real about the collective human experiance shared by humanity declaring the exsistence of God ? before you post a simplistic analogy stop & think about it...since recorded History to the present day...would you say that there may be a tiny teeny possibility there really is a spiritual world apart from culture & tradition...conditioning...brain washing...socio economic factors...blah blah & ra ra ?


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Concolor
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@ARAZEC:
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O.k so now we agree that both religions of Atheism & Christianity require HUGE LEAPS OF FAITH thats been conceded right ?
Of course not :)

To suppose the existence of invisible gnomes, or Gods, or fairies, or teapots orbiting Mars, is quite the opposite of NOT supposing such things.

I would say that it is easier to differentiate those who believe something to be true regardless of the evidence from those who say "why would you do that?" which then would be called agnomists or atheists or afairyists or ateapotists depending on which undocumented claim was rejected. I am no more faithful to my disbelief in Gods than my disbelief in invisible gnomes, so why would you pick out just one of the many things I reject (theism) on the same basis I reject the other things (gnomism, etc.) and claim that this is my religion?

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What then isnt real about the collective human experiance shared by humanity declaring the exsistence of God ?
The experience is real - of course it is. But that does not mean that there is a God.

I can see a murder on a film and experience the horror of watching a murder. My experience is real - but the murder is not.
I can fall asleep and dream that I am flying. My experience is real (it truly feels like I'm flying) - but the flying is not real.
I can read a book and read about a fantastical landscape on other worlds and feel the wonder of such awesomeness. My experience is real - but the landscape is not.

What I'm getting at is that just because we have an experience, the source of the experience does not in any way have to be real.
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before you post a simplistic analogy stop & think about it...since recorded History to the present day...would you say that there may be a tiny teeny possibility there really is a spiritual world apart from culture & tradition...conditioning...brain washing...socio economic factors...blah blah & ra ra ?
Why would I know anything about the probabilities of the existence of something that we have no reason to suppose exist? Probabilities are something we calculate from different factors, but when we have nothing to calculate from it makes no sense to speak of probabilities.

People have had many different ideas for extremely long time periods. Some of them have been shown to be right, some of them have been shown to be wrong and some of them we have no evidence either for or against (some even claim to be about things one cannot find evidence for).
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Reason, compassion and love comes first. Everything else is secondary. Except for Skittles. - And emperor Cheezy! Posted Image
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