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Agile Weapon (weapon finesse) Vs. Double slice.
Topic Started: Apr 29 2015, 11:09 AM (940 Views)
Lavarel
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Agile weapon
auto-get from weapon finesse
A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.


Double Slice
auto-get from two weapon fighting
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.



What do you think about it?

the rules in question can result in two different ends, depending on how you interpret and which things preceded the others.


  • - double slice add full STR to off-hand damage instead of 1/2 STR
    - Agile weapon replace STR with DEX for damage
    =>ergo, agile + double slice result in full DEX to off hand damage

  • - Agile weapon replace 1/2 STR with 1/2 DEX for off-hand damage
    - Double slice add full STR, instead of 1/2 STR
    => However, there's no 1/2 STR int the off-hand damage now. so double slice does not work
    ==> 1/2 DEX to off hand damage

So, what do you think? what's the plus and the minus side of those two interpretation, and which one carries more weight by RAW?
Please includes reference if you can, please :D
Edited by Lavarel, May 13 2015, 10:14 AM.
Credit and thanks to
- Nuevomundo campaign by Cupie
- Silvarion campaign by Dimas.
- Pathfinder roleplaying game by Paizo Publishing
If there's any rising issue or anything. feel free to contact me.

The Pathfinder rules can be found here and here
Campaign rules and setting can be found here
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Innocent
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Just my opinion:

From 'Damage'
 
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.

Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.


source: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html

As we can see, this is placed on the 'add Strength modifier to damage' part. As the Agile say that you can choose to apply Dexterity in place of Strength, then I would side with the first one. The same with Elven Curve Blade it seems; add 1-1/2 Dex bonus, as consequences.



However,

Since in this campaign everyone can get agile weapon too easily, it will give too many benefits to Finesse warrior. Whether this is an intended objective or not, this is CGM's territory.
Edited by Innocent, May 13 2015, 09:23 AM.
"I.. I am Innocent!"
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Lavarel
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However, there are a specific passage in the agile weapon description, and i believe specific trumps general rules

"This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."

Even if it's already increased to full strength, wouldn't it still be reduced back to half DEX?


Or, which one is the more specific rules, which one trumps another?
Edited by Lavarel, May 13 2015, 10:06 AM.
Credit and thanks to
- Nuevomundo campaign by Cupie
- Silvarion campaign by Dimas.
- Pathfinder roleplaying game by Paizo Publishing
If there's any rising issue or anything. feel free to contact me.

The Pathfinder rules can be found here and here
Campaign rules and setting can be found here
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Innocent
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Ah, I skipped that part. So no 1.5x then.

About the 2-wpn, I still assume that they assume normal state: no Double Slice.

However, I personally prefer for not skewing the balance favor too much towards finesse two-weapon fighting.
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Lavarel
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Well, then the RAI might be full dex to damage?
RAW, it's still reduced to 1/2?


welp, I pick RAW too. I tend to believe the off-hand will still do only 1/2 Dex damage.
However, i'm quite reluctant on dropping the gavel, since i haven't heard from another people.

what about by fluff and flavor, any interpretation?
Credit and thanks to
- Nuevomundo campaign by Cupie
- Silvarion campaign by Dimas.
- Pathfinder roleplaying game by Paizo Publishing
If there's any rising issue or anything. feel free to contact me.

The Pathfinder rules can be found here and here
Campaign rules and setting can be found here
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Innocent
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Considering:
1. Every Weapon Finesse users also gain Agile weapon for free, in a campaign difficult of gaining magic item
2. Every Two-weapon fighting users also gain double slice, and manu others.

I am on the side of no bonus from double slice for finesse dual wielder. Otherwise Innocent would be very happy to take all the free bonuses.
"I.. I am Innocent!"
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