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NomNomNoommm
Topic Started: Jan 10 2010, 04:53 AM (4,467 Views)
Me
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Capital punishment in the United States varies by jurisdiction and is applied rarely: in practice only for aggravated murder and even more rarely for felony murder or contract killing. People don't like death row and are all like "You don't get to make that call on taking someone else's life, no one does." and get all "what right do you have?" in your face.

...

Well, maybe someone should have explained that to the people on death row. If killing one serial killer will save ten lives, it's wrong to let that one life live. I think it's very sad, and think that is we brought back public hangings, it'd help scare people. One public hanging would probably prevent at least 5 lethal injections (which are just as inhumane if not more - you just can't hear them scream.)

I need to rule the world and make it right.
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TheDeepDark
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Jason
Jan 21 2010, 10:53 PM
Tho', I suppose you could get around it by simply tranquilizing them and locking them up somewhere...
Except look at the comics! NO Super-villians EVER die in comics, because the good guys have to stay... good guys.

As nasty as the whole business is, I'm not going to give someone like Joker (or, heaven forbid, Carnage) some by-line and a pair of handcuffs. It's a nasty thought, but presented with the chance...

Maybe I read too much Dresden Files
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towr
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Me
Jan 22 2010, 03:58 AM
Well, maybe someone should have explained that to the people on death row. If killing one serial killer will save ten lives, it's wrong to let that one life live.
A ) it won't save ten lives. Most people on death row are not serial killers, and most murders are not committed by serial killers anyway. Besides, they're not killing anyone when they're locked up either.
B ) too many innocent people have been railroaded into death row. From 1973, 139 people on death row have eventually been exonerated. (See, e.g., here and here.) I'm not too fond of sacrificing the innocent to punish the guilty; it defeats the purpose.

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I think it's very sad, and think that is we brought back public hangings, it'd help scare people.
It'd scare people, but wouldn't decrease the murder rate one iota. The few murderers we still have in society don't really stop to consider the consequences, so such deterrents do not help. The people that would be deterred from murder are already deterred by the measures we have.

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I need to rule the world and make it right.
Evidence based world governance, please. :lol:
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Jack
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Me
Jan 22 2010, 03:58 AM
Well, maybe someone should have explained that to the people on death row. If killing one serial killer will save ten lives, it's wrong to let that one life live. I think it's very sad, and think that is we brought back public hangings, it'd help scare people. One public hanging would probably prevent at least 5 lethal injections (which are just as inhumane if not more - you just can't hear them scream.)

I need to rule the world and make it right.
Utilitarianism is impossible to apply so such a situation, because you can't predict what will happen. Saying that killing one person who might kill ten people will save ten lives is bad logic, and worse English - it blurs the line between might and will

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I'm not too fond of sacrificing the innocent to punish the guilty; it defeats the purpose.

Indeed.

Forty lashes minus one, anyone?
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Me
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Honestly, I expected you guys to agree more with me considering the vast amount of common ground I have here, but this is just like real life, it seems. Sigh. Well, here we go:
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Utilitarianism is impossible to apply so such a situation, because you can't predict what will happen. Saying that killing one person who might kill ten people will save ten lives is bad logic, and worse English - it blurs the line between might and will
The whole point of ethics is to help you clarify that blur of "might" and "will"- otherwise we wouldn't have a problem. Logic also will say the absolute opposite things in different hands, I know for a fact.
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A ) it won't save ten lives. Most people on death row are not serial killers, and most murders are not committed by serial killers anyway. Besides, they're not killing anyone when they're locked up either.
This is true - I know this. But there will ALWAYS be cases like that. Even outside executions, there will always be innocents who die instead of the wicked. I'm saying it's wrong to just not do anything as a solution. You can't say that because there is a chance someone innocent might get killed it is an excuse to not get rid on the ones who are not - that's a lawyers job to prevent.
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B ) too many innocent people have been railroaded into death row. From 1973, 139 people on death row have eventually been exonerated. (See, e.g., here and here.) I'm not too fond of sacrificing the innocent to punish the guilty; it defeats the purpose.
The amount of cases where this inverse of that is true cancels those out. Grossly exaggerated cases like that are too few to say capital punishment is unjust. There are plenty of cases where the inverse is true - the most recent of which was in '09: A girl had a boyfirend, right? Well, her parents said they thought he was not safe and they didn't want her seeing him, so she obeyed and ended the relationship. Next night said boyfriend comes back with three buddies and kills them all - shooting the father in the head, making sure to stab the mother and six year old boy in non fatal places alternately so it would take longer and the mom and kid could watch each other die; finally stabbing the tied up girlfriend to death after everyone else so she could watch. The dad made in to his neighbor's door leaving a trail of blood and that's the only reason we know who did it. Last I knew the lawyers were pulling the "Crime of passion" and "UI" cards. His friends weren't the least bit under influence. 4 innocents died and they don't want the douches on death row.

I'm not too fond of not sacrificing the guilty and punishing innocents.

Acutally, Jason, and Elys, you both should technically be on my side. The Man Upstairs Himself talk about capital punishment. Exodus 21:12 - 16 and Numbers 35: 30-33: are just two of the few that I can bring up. My point stands that letting someone live is not always right.I'm not too fond of not sacrificing the guilty and punishing the innocent.
Edited by Me, Jan 22 2010, 07:49 PM.
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towr
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Not having a death penalty does not amount to doing nothing. If you lock people up, they also won't have a chance to harm anyone else in society. And unlike death, you can (to some extent) remedy false imprisonment.
I just don't see any added value to capital punishment.

And if we're going to quote the bible, let's not overlook the New Testament. Jesus was not to hot on the old testament eye-for-an-eye approach. e.g. Matthew 5:38-41, Romans 12:17-21.


I do agree that letting someone live is not always the right choice. If they are an immediate threat to someone and there is no other recourse, then taking their life is justified. For example, if they are holding someone hostage, or are waving a weapon around.
But killing as revenge, or punishment, or as a means to prevent repetition when other (and better) means of preventing it exist, just seems wrong to me.
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Elystriana
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I wasn't saying I disagreed with you. I was just saying that I personally wouldn't be the one to kill him. Actually, even if it was me dying or the person trying to kill me, I would probably end up dying because I don't think I could force myself to kill someone. That's just how I am.
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Me
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e.g. Matthew 5:38-41, Romans 12:17-21.
That is a good point, but there He is speaking on a personal basis to the people. I agree - it would be very wrong for me to go out and kill someone to avenge a friend and family member, yes; doing so would make me guilty of the exact same thing. But it is not wrong for the law to put that same person to death for the murder. It would be wrong to go sabotage someone for doing the same to me, and as a Christian I should love them just the same; I will most often help someone who hasn't been nice to me in the hopes that they'll knock it off - but when God is speaking about the law He says we are not to take satisfaction in the life of one guilty of death.
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But killing as revenge, or punishment, or as a means to prevent repetition when other (and better) means of preventing it exist, just seems wrong to me.
And I understand that - I really do. Last time there was a lethal injection I felt sick for days; I don't like executing people, I don't take any satisfaction in it. If they are not guilty of death, by all means, use the prison; I will sleep better. But if they are guilty and people don't want the dead the best words to sum my view is the below quote:

"Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding."

It's very true. :unsure:
Edited by Me, Jan 22 2010, 08:43 PM.
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Snofox Kari
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ooh Jason and Towr at it again...only this time its with a little help from Me :lol:
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towr
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Jan 22 2010, 08:42 PM
"Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding."
There is a lot of truth in that. But it isn't just criminals, it is also society itself that thrives on its understanding. Society is better off if it does `indulge'. That is part of what sets it aside from the criminals.
A balance has to be struck between protecting society and sacrificing the humanity that makes society possible. And I think we have done much better in that respect than societies in the past where you could be put to death for offenses such as stealing a loaf of bread.

And ultimately I simply do not see what killing a murderer gets us that imprisoning them does not. But I do see what it costs us (in more ways than one). Especially since in many cases no one but God can be certain of someone's guilt.
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TheDeepDark
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I don't even begin to think I have answers for how to fix the over-all problem.

I can only say honestly that if it comes to a question of 'him' versus me and mine, he is going to die. Not that I want to kill by any means (I thank God that I haven't had to yet), but the question becomes a non-question in the face of a direct threat.

This is also something it's probably a good thing the kids who harassed me in school never figured out about me. I got slapped around because I wouldn't really fight back; easy mark. The reason being if I'm going to fight back, I'm never going to "fight."
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Snofox Kari
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good choice ^^
i have a funny story relating to that one (well...i try to laugh at it but it was really a breaking point for me at the time ._. )

oh boy do i have stories of being picked on :lol: ugh i am glad people are less direct about it...although that only makes for more backstabbers...so i watch my back constantly :(

but in all the best way to fight is with your head (no headbutting is not a good idea :rolleyes: )
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Me
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And ultimately I simply do not see what killing a murderer gets us that imprisoning them does not. But I do see what it costs us (in more ways than one). Especially since in many cases no one but God can be certain of someone's guilt.
It would get us a better place to live. I'm not even scared of the death penalty. If I wanted to murder someone, we'll say this guy Jim, because he hates my guts, I would ask myself the following questions:

What are the odds of pulling this off? Great, since I actually have the tools and knowledge to do so.
What are the odds of being caught? About 20%, considering I'd do it where I can easily point the finger.
What are the odds of death penalty for murder? Not good. All I have to do is play the repentant victim who didn't know what she was doing. Make sure I have alcohol in my system, have been lying to a psychiatrist about fake problems, and acting troubled for months beforehand. Enough people will not take the chance on my innocence to push the death penalty thing. (No, I'm not saying that pointedly, just about every other person have said the same thing.)
Odds of being believed? Very good. Sob during the trial and beg the family to forgive you. Again, make sure you have drugs or alcohol for your lawyers to parade.
Odds of prison? Pretty good if the prosecution has a good attorney.
Odds of time out of good behavior? Excellent. Act repentant, lie your way to the person that all the guards like, and lay low.
Again, odds of capture? Being careless? 20% I'd say. Being careful? More like 10%.
So is it worth the 20% chance of prison? When there are not enough prisoners the wardens have recently been letting homeless people sleep in the prisons for the night - there are much worse places to be - Antarctica for instance.
So is it worth the 10% risk of death? There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. I have a worse chance every morning.
So worth it to get rid of this person? HELL. YES.

And that's me - someone without a personal vendetta, anger issues, mental instability, or the loss of a lover - a girl who could get away with murder and knows it. I don't even want to think about a 30 some odd guy with a gun with real issues who just as apathetic about the law as I am.

I wouldn't try it in India, however - not even my brothers would. India has a whole slew of problems yes, but my Dad's co worker said you can leave your briefcase on the sidewalk for an hour and come back to it no problem because everyone knows something: Your 'clean' hand will be cut off, or you will be caned, or you will be killed. Fear is what's needed to keep the masses in check, and if I'm not scared of the law that's scary even to me. Stiffer punishment than a heated prison is far more effective than putting them on time outs for them to stew.

@Kari: Well, not exactly - they were usually against each other and they're both against me here. :lol: The debater of my debater is my friend. I unite people if nothing else.

@DeepDark: My mom won't let me go to school because she thinks I might end up fighting. :ermm:
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Elystriana
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@DeepDark: My mom won't let me go to school because she thinks I might end up fighting.

No really? I wonder why... :P
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Me
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Elystriana
Jan 23 2010, 04:50 AM
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@DeepDark: My mom won't let me go to school because she thinks I might end up fighting.

No really? I wonder why... :P
Me too. I won't fight for no reason.
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