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NomNomNoommm
Topic Started: Jan 10 2010, 04:53 AM (4,465 Views)
Me
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We've ninja-ed the forum unlike anyone else has tonight, I think - and we are still the newest. ;) :lol:

N00b l33t h4x0rZ Sk!LLz FTW!!
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towr
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Jan 23 2010, 04:25 AM
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And ultimately I simply do not see what killing a murderer gets us that imprisoning them does not. But I do see what it costs us (in more ways than one). Especially since in many cases no one but God can be certain of someone's guilt.
It would get us a better place to live.
I don't see any conceivable way how it would. If you lock them up they do as little harm as when they're dead.

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If I wanted to murder someone, we'll say this guy Jim, because he hates my guts, I would ask myself the following questions:
[..]
So worth it to get rid of this person? HELL. YES.
Well, at least we agree on the fact that capital punishment is pointless as a deterrent (although we differ on why).

But what is the point of getting rid of this person? Either she already killed someone, and you're too late. In this case there is no benefit of killing her over locking her up, cause in either case she will not kill again. And before the fact, you don't know she will murder, and, in any case, she isn't guilty until she does.
And the problem remains, when you do catch someone you suspect of being this person, you cannot be absolutely certain. You may be condemning an innocent woman to death based on a mistaken identification.

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I wouldn't try it in India, however - not even my brothers would. India has a whole slew of problems yes, but my Dad's co worker said you can leave your briefcase on the sidewalk for an hour and come back to it no problem because everyone knows something: Your 'clean' hand will be cut off, or you will be caned, or you will be killed. Fear is what's needed to keep the masses in check, and if I'm not scared of the law that's scary even to me.
Face it, you're not going to try and murder anyone in America either; and if you came to Europe (where we don't have capital punishment) you still wouldn't. Let's be honest, you're a nicer person than you give yourself credit for.
The supposed higher level of 'deterrence' is pointless in a modern country. Because here it only "deters" people that already wouldn't do it. The actual murderers either don't stop to think about whether they'll be caught, don't care, or are psychopaths that think they're smarter than the system. No matter how great the punishment, these groups won't be deterred.
Also consider that India, despite its harsh punishments, still has a high crime rate. It had over 30 thousand murders and almost 24 thousand kidnapping in 2006. That's a much higher rate than we have here in western Europe, despite our "soft" approach. Harsh punishment just tells people that there are circumstances where it's okay to indulge in violence.


What scares me is people that only keep themselves in check because they're afraid of the law. There are some of course, that's why we need the law. And perhaps the world would be better off without these people. But in general I would hope people keep themselves in check because they feel in the pit of their stomach that killing someone is wrong, in and of itself wrong.
In whatever lawless world I might find myself I'd trust a random strangers not to kill me, for that same reason. The not-so-random stranger I'd eye with suspicion, but I'd trust the random ones. We wouldn't have a society if we couldn't trust each other. And we won't have a society if we stop. I'll take that ten in a million chance a random stranger kills me. Or even the fifty in a million if I go the the US. That small cost is worth it.

The only way to get rid of all criminals would be to monitor everyone real-time, all the time. Put a shock-collar on everyone, and if anyone transgresses shock them into submission (or why not kill them outright). I'm sorry, but such a totalitarian state is not for me (unless I get to rule it). I'll take the bad with the good, in the best proportion available.


...

I write too much.


[edit]
Here's a few related articles that might be of interest:
"Reevaluating the Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment"
"The Myth That Harsh Punishments Reduce Juvenile Crime"
"Shame and Criminal Justice" (Includes a bit on delinquency in Japanese classrooms, for those obsessed with manga, anime and all things Japanese :P )
[/edit]
Edited by towr, Jan 23 2010, 01:12 PM.
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Snofox Kari
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:lol: yet with all the Persisntant Towr continues the argument wich will never be settled (honestly...if there was a right answer you'd think SOMEONE would have figuered it out by now therby leaving you without a debatable topic :lol: )
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Elystriana
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I thought we'd gotten off that discussion already- at least, Me and DD pulled us off. Or whatever.

That, Kari, is why I don't like debatable topics- because there's not really a confirmed right or wrong answer. That is the one reason why I like math.
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Jack
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Jan 22 2010, 07:40 PM
The whole point of ethics is to help you clarify that blur of "might" and "will"- otherwise we wouldn't have a problem.
Who needs ethics when you have morality?

Old Testament verses aside, we're also told to be like Christ - who went in and ATE with exactly those type of people, so that he could win them over by LOVE. Mercy can never be overrated. And the same for grace. We're told to love them, not bring judgment down.

Jesus said (and this is just a paraphrase) that God had already judged the world. So that's not our job - it's already done. It IS our job to go out and be a witness. You don't be a witness by insisting on capital punishment. This isn't to say that capital punishment doesn't have its place - we're told by God to obey those in authority over us, and sometimes that authority declares that the consequences of breaking its laws are death. So long as that doesn't contradict what the Bible tells us, I'm okay with it. But you can't go around generalizing.
Edited by Jack, Jan 23 2010, 07:42 PM.
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towr
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Snofox Kari
Jan 23 2010, 02:48 PM
:lol: yet with all the Persisntant Towr continues the argument wich will never be settled (honestly...if there was a right answer you'd think SOMEONE would have figuered it out by now therby leaving you without a debatable topic :lol: )
I guess you're right. I'll just have to fight Me for world domination.
Or maybe divide the world in two so we can compare which system empirically works better. (A proposition, of course, which has huge ethical problem in itself. But hey, so does vying for world domination.)
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towr
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Elystriana
Jan 23 2010, 05:25 PM
That, Kari, is why I don't like debatable topics- because there's not really a confirmed right or wrong answer. That is the one reason why I like math.
Hey, if it wasn't for this topic and Me, it might have been ages before I'd ever read any criminology articles again. It's riveting stuff. If nothing else comes of the discussion, that by itself would be enough.

And there is enough to debate in mathematics. Questions like Riemann's hypothesis, or P=NP, won't be settled by proofs any time soon. And if anyone did propose a proof, there would be a fierce debate about it's validity. And then there's things like methodology, like the partly algorithmic proof of the four color theorem (some people really don't like it that you have to depend on a computer to check its validity).

Err. I really hope that's not putting you off maths :lol: There's few enough people that like maths as it is, let alone girls that like maths.
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Elystriana
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No, it hasn't put me off, since I'm not doing math stuff quite that advanced. I'm still on algebra.
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Me
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Old Testament verses aside..
Old Testament verses ASIDE? Are..you kidding me? Jesus is talking to us on a PERSONAL basis, the Old Testament was speaking on the LAW, the LAW and those who run it. I am speaking of the law. Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books, if you'll remember, Deuteronomy (the book of the law) being one of the most frequent.
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Matthew 5: 17-18: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
*Points upward* People disregarding the old Testament is one way to really get my dander up. Sorry.
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I don't see any conceivable way how it would. If you lock them up they do as little harm as when they're dead.
People rarely get full life time - at least in America. At some point they get out. For the ones who STAY there for life - yes, I can see getting rid of capital punishment - but they don't. People released for long prison sentences are quite likely to do it again. They are angry because their lives have been STOLEN. Prison is not a life. They don't work, they don't learn, they just sit in prison getting angry and have plenty of time to think and learn the ropes of the police officers. It doesn't work.
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Face it, you're not going to try and murder anyone in America either; and if you came to Europe (where we don't have capital punishment) you still wouldn't. Let's be honest, you're a nicer person than you give yourself credit for.
NO, I'm not going to murder someone without just reason, I said that. And it has nothing to do with being nice - it has everything to do with being WRONG. The point is that I could. (Which really sounds arrogant, but in reality it is the only thing at the moment that I can honestly say 'Yes, I could do it.'; graduating college would be harder. ) I could get away with murder because I don't care about capital punishment, so God knows the real criminals are ten times scarier.
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Also consider that India, despite its harsh punishments, still has a high crime rate. It had over 30 thousand murders and almost 24 thousand kidnapping in 2006. That's a much higher rate than we have here in western Europe, despite our "soft" approach. Harsh punishment just tells people that there are circumstances where it's okay to indulge in violence.
I know India has issues, I'm just saying that fear helps. There is a disgustingly high crime rate everywhere, yes, but in there at least your possessions are pretty safe.

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But what is the point of getting rid of this person? Either she already killed someone, and you're too late. In this case there is no benefit of killing her over locking her up, cause in either case she will not kill again. And before the fact, you don't know she will murder, and, in any case, she isn't guilty until she does.
And the problem remains, when you do catch someone you suspect of being this person, you cannot be absolutely certain. You may be condemning an innocent woman to death based on a mistaken identification
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Old Testament verses aside, we're also told to be like Christ - who went in and ATE with exactly those type of people, so that he could win them over by LOVE. Mercy can never be overrated. And the same for grace. We're told to love them, not bring judgment down..
I feel compelled to quote Charles Colson on the matter. Colson served seven months in Maxwell Correctional Facility in Alabama, — with brief stints at a facility on the Fort Holabird grounds when needed as a trial witness — entering prison on July 9, 1974. He becuse converted to Christ during that time, however. After his release from prison, Colson founded Prison Fellowship. Colson has worked to promote prisoner rehabilitation and reform of the prison system in the United States. He disdains what he calls the "lock 'em and leave 'em" warehousing approach to criminal justice.He has helped to create faith-based prisons whose populations come from inmates who choose to participate in them. All of Colson's book royalties are donated to Prison Fellowship. So, yes, I suppose good can come from prison, but he was not to be given capital punishment. Here is what he said, and what is bolded is my entire thought on the matter you have brought up.

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For as long as I can remember, I have opposed capital punishment. As a lawyer I observed how flawed the legal system is, and I concluded, as Justice Learned Hand once remarked, that it was better that a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be executed. I was also influenced by very libertarian views of government; I distrusted government too much to give power to take a human life to the judicial system.

Then as I became a Christian, I was confronted with the reality of Jesus' payment of the debt of human sin. I discovered that the operation of God's marvelous grace in our lives has profound implications for the way we live. Naturally, as I came to deal increasingly with ethical issues, I found myself seriously questioning whether the death penalty was an effective deterrent. My views were very much influenced by Deuteronomy 17 and the need for two eye-witnesses. I questioned whether the circumstantial evidence on which most are sentenced today in fact measures up to this standard of proof. I still have grave reservations about the way in which capital punishment is administered in the U.S., and I still do question whether it is a deterrent. (In fact, I remain convinced it is not a general deterrent.)

But I must say that my views have changed and that I now favor capital punishment, at least in principle, but only in extreme cases when no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice.

The reason for this is quite simple. Justice in God's eyes requires that the response to an offense - whether against God or against humanity - be proportionate. The lex talionis, the "law of the talion," served as a restraint, a limitation, that punishment would be no greater than the crime. Yet, implied therein is a standard that the punishment should be at least as great as the crime. One frequently finds among Christians the belief that Jesus' so-called "love-ethic" sets aside the "law of of the talion." To the contrary, Jesus affirms the divine basis of Old Testament ethics. Nowhere does Jesus set aside the requirements of civil law.

What about mercy? someone is inclined to ask. My response is simple. There can be no mercy where justice is not satisfied. Justice entails receiving what we in fact deserve; we did in fact know better. Mercy is not receiving what we in truth deserve. To be punished, however severely, because we indeed deserve it, as C.S. Lewis observed, is to be treated with dignity as human beings created in the image of God. Conversely, to abandon the criteria of righteous and just punishment, as Lewis also pointed out, is to abandon all criteria for punishment.
Conclusion: Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

I believe that is actually a verse somewhere, but if not then that is my thinking.

(The full article can be found here if you so desire to read it.)

We all talk too much. :rolleyes: But it's fun to talk with people on the other team and figure out how they think.
Edited by Me, Jan 23 2010, 10:50 PM.
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Elystriana
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..........that is one seriously long post. :blink:
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Snofox Kari
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yes, Elys, the debate continues :D
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TheDeepDark
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towr
Jan 23 2010, 10:39 PM
There's few enough people that like maths as it is, let alone girls that like maths.
... Do you not know many Asians? Most of my Chinese and Japanese friends (and heck, China overall) are freaky when it comes to math. They play math games together as recreation.
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Me
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Like these?

Hey, it had to be done - not my fault it was so long. My fingers hurt for a half hour after that one, so my penance is paid.
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Jack
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Old Testament verses ASIDE? Are..you kidding me? Jesus is talking to us on a PERSONAL basis, the Old Testament was speaking on the LAW, the LAW and those who run it. I am speaking of the law. Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books, if you'll remember, Deuteronomy (the book of the law) being one of the most frequent.

Yes, but now that He has come, the Law is not the determining factor for salvation. The Law can only condemn, it can never offer reprieve.

It's our job to do that.
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*Points upward* People disregarding the old Testament is one way to really get my dander up. Sorry.

Not disregarding it, putting it in perspective. The Law is not what governs our actions any more! It is the love that we have for Christ, and the desire to be more like Christ! Are there useful things to be found in the Law? Absolutely! But you can no longer claim that the Law shows the way to salvation!
Galatians 3:19-22
 
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

This sums it up nicely, I think. The Law held us captive - our only hope was faith that Jesus would come - until He did come, and sacrificed himself.
Galatians 3:13
 
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”-

And so the Law is now fulfilled. The debt is payed. And we no longer have to pay that debt ourselves.
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People rarely get full life time - at least in America. At some point they get out. For the ones who STAY there for life - yes, I can see getting rid of capital punishment - but they don't. People released for long prison sentences are quite likely to do it again. They are angry because their lives have been STOLEN. Prison is not a life. They don't work, they don't learn, they just sit in prison getting angry and have plenty of time to think and learn the ropes of the police officers. It doesn't work.

This is where I disagree with the methods of our justice system. Yes, we are to be merciful, but our actions also have consequences. Yes, I do believe in punishment - but instead of 'justice tempered with mercy', I take the stance 'mercy tempered with justice'. Our first thought should not be to pass judgment. If it is, we've failed. It's that simple.
Consider Jesus on the cross, and the thieves hanging next to Him. To get crucifixion, you really had to be a bad guy - these two guys must have done some terrible things. Yet one admitted that he deserved it, and Jesus did it. He was given a chance at redemption, in essence - and he took it. The very least we can do is give time for God to work in the person's heart, whoever they may be.
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But I must say that my views have changed and that I now favor capital punishment, at least in principle, but only in extreme cases when no other punishment can satisfy the demands of justice.

And that is where I agree with you. I am not completely against capital punishment, only against how swiftly and readily it gets 'dished out', so to speak. The old requirements for capital punishment, as laid down in the Law, are effective - but we must also factor in the fact that we are witnesses to the world. It's not our purpose - at the very least, not our primary purpose. Our purpose is to show the world the light, not be the God's hand of vengeance.

Because really, when you think about it, that's what it is. When people commit crimes like these, they're not sinning against you, or me, or anyone else, for that matter - they're sinning against their Creator. In the end, it will be Him that deals the final judgment. Until that time, it's up to us to focus on showing people the love of Christ.

To sum up: does the Law still hold? Yes (Matthew 5:17-20). Does it govern our actions? Emphatically no (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3). We are no longer slaves to sin - even though all of us are murderers (John 8:7-11). We are set free, redeemed, forgiven. Now we're supposed to act like it.

-Matt Rain & Jason West
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Me
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But you can no longer claim that the Law shows the way to salvation!

Dude... I never did. The very minute you hear me spout such bullshit in such proportions I would appreciate it if you stoned me to death immediately, I'm not stupid. I really fail to see what that has to do with anything that been brought up to this point.
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The Law is not what governs our actions any more!
No. No, it's not. But it should.
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Our first thought should not be to pass judgment. If it is, we've failed. It's that simple.
True, but capital punishment is a far cry form judging in most instances. The government is not to act on a personal basis - it is to extend unfeeling justice. The law should not have mercy for a murderer, and we should take no pleasure in their death. WE, the people, are supposed to extend mercy, yes, but that contradicts having a law if the government is going to tweak thing individually. IF the law finds to the best of it's ability a man to be guilty - that's how it goes. As to the whole innocence thing:
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16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, 17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, 19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
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Yet one admitted that he deserved it, and Jesus did it. He was given a chance at redemption, in essence - and he took it. The very least we can do is give time for God to work in the person's heart, whoever they may be.
He still got crucified. You said so yourself - he had the opportunity for mercy, and took it, but he still was given what the law demanded.
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And that is where I agree with you. I am not completely against capital punishment, only against how swiftly and readily it gets 'dished out', so to speak. The old requirements for capital punishment, as laid down in the Law, are effective - but we must also factor in the fact that we are witnesses to the world. It's not our purpose - at the very least, not our primary purpose. Our purpose is to show the world the light, not be the God's hand of vengeance.
Who said anything about being God's vengeance? No one is going to be God's vengeance, capital punishment for capital crimes is nothing but OBEDIENCE, and nothing short of the opposite to disregard it.
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We are no longer slaves to sin - even though all of us are murderers.
You're right. We're not. We are not free from the consequences of it, however. David was not allowed to build the temple - he had too much blood on his hands from the wars, event though wars are justified. His son was struck dead because he David killed a woman's husband because he wanted to bang her. He was very dear to God, yes, but he was still punished. Forgiveness DOES NOT = being let off of the law. God granted us salvation, that does not mean we get to do as we please when it comes to the rules. He expects us the screw up, but he also expects us the try to be like him and NOT screw up. Thinking that what you do doesn't matter is spitting in His face, AND LETTING PEOPLE THINK THAT BY INACTION is doing the same. You are saying the law is to act on a personal basis. It's not. It is called justice because it is unbiased punishment. If we Christians did our job better, this wouldn't' be an issue, but it is not for us to say that they should live because we will feel guilt about it if we do. We're not supposed to like it, but we're supposed to do it. We are to take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but neither are we to take satisfaction in the life of a murderer. Those are both verses.
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And that is where I agree with you. I am not completely against capital punishment, only against how swiftly and readily it gets 'dished out', so to speak.
...It's not. GOD knows it's not. The punishment to crime ratio of this is DISGUSTING. And very un-Christian. More than 4,500 people have been executed in the United States since 1930. Most people pat themselves on the back for that one. Yay. There were more than 16,272 murders in 'O8 alone. That seems a bit far from the mark of justice to me - and a bit far from the mark for mercy when it comes to all those people who were murdered. Mercy is not a one way street.
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Because really, when you think about it, that's what it is. When people commit crimes like these, they're not sinning against you, or me, or anyone else, for that matter - they're sinning against their Creator. In the end, it will be Him that deals the final judgment. Until that time, it's up to us to focus on showing people the love of Christ.
This is not personal. this is talking about a beehive, not an individual bee. If that's all he meant, he would not have set the law in place. You are right. He will be their final judgment, so why are you so adverse to passing them the one he set in motion if it's up to him anyhow?
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Does it govern our actions?
Not ours. The law's. We are responsible for them up until the death sentence. The it is on our heads for not reaching them, yes, but there is a price of blood to be paid from that point on. That is why ministry is so important - we are to reach the lost. By all means, try to talk to the ones on death row, many might turn, but why is keeping them in prison so much more merciful?. If they don't convert in prison and simply die in their sins later - how is that any different than execution?

I think you are grossly misunderstanding my point, sir (Or, sirs, as I seem to be dealing with two if you). You are adverse to the death penalty because you don't want to see people die in their sins. Problem I have with that: A whole SLEW of people more have been MURDERED in their sins without any times to repent than the few murderers who have been executed with plenty of time. Think about it : How many murdered were probably ready to meet their Maker? How many fewer had anytime to think about it? More people have headed to hell that way than a murderer, who had plenty of time to think about it and actually has a better chance of heaven than the random murdered atheist. This is why they had CHAPLAINS at executions - but there could be no chaplains for the murdered. Most people just don't think about the innocent being as hell bound as the murderer, so their conciseness' are pricked with guilt about the murderer because they know they should be doing a better job.

I hated the idea of capital punishment as much as I hated the idea of Christianity. For a LONG time. I was dragged into the Kingdom of Heaven kicking and screaming like you guys wouldn't believe, and I am the same way about this. I am not simply saying what I've think is good because I've simply decided so - I've spent days on this, and like Christianity, unfortunately for me it is the only logical choice.

You cannot decide because you don't like something to ignore it and find alternatives that don't work as well. That's like ignoring your vegetables because you don't like the way they taste - you need them to make the body run properly and cutting them out will just make the engine die.

If I murdered someone, Christian or not, it would be morally wrong to let me live. Capital Crime = Capital Punishment. This country was founded on biblical standards, and we executed people. You don't respect that God's law, you don't respect God. And God clearly states that we are to do away with murderers.
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