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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 10 2010, 04:53 AM (4,464 Views) | |
| TheDeepDark | Jan 24 2010, 06:38 AM Post #241 |
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Where light goes to die
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What I find interesting (and to digress - sorry guys) is that suicide is also a felony here in the U.S. |
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| towr | Jan 24 2010, 09:34 AM Post #242 |
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Defender of the pie
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No, not really, to be honest. We don't have a large population of Asians in the Netherlands. |
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| towr | Jan 24 2010, 10:15 AM Post #243 |
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Defender of the pie
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Do you know all the laws in the old testament? Because I can guarantee you're not adhering to many of them. Even if we put the dietary laws aside, because Jesus explicitly mentioned why they don't matter. There are still a lot of weird laws left. Such as having to sequester yourself as a woman if you have your period. Or putting to death people working on a sabbath (which would mean killing pretty much all emergency personnel, and the army). The laws in the bible are meant for pre-Christian-era Israelites, not for third millenium westerners (also see here and here). We have our own laws, and certainly, people should obey them. But we choose those laws ourselves as a society. And the death penalty needn't be one of those choices. Can we at least agree that people who don't re-offend deserve a second chance in society? Cause I'll take what I can get ![]() I have some trouble finding more current data (also because I haven't much time at the moment), but the recidivism rate for murderers in 1983 was 6.6%. Which certainly isn't low, but it does show that (at least then), most murderers did not commit further murders after they were released. That sounds to me like a problem with the prison system. The solution is therefore reforming the prison system. The solution is emphatically not killing the prisoners which the prison system has failed to rehabilitate. But that is what you get, when you concentrate on (harsh) punishment and not reintegration. Criminals should pay their dues to society, and if possible (because not all people can be redeemed) be accepted back in the fold. There is no point to punishment if it does not equate to making amends with society. I don't believe you could. There is a huge psychological barrier, and I honestly don't think you, or most people, can get past that. True enough, that's why they should be locked up. Very apt. But you and I seem to differ on what constitutes justice. Punishment is only part of justice, it is only part of resolving the conflict between the perpetrator, the victim and society (I've been quite drawn to views in the earlier article I posted). Justice is not the blind application of law, laws can be unjust. Justice is the application of wisdom. But to return to C.S. Lewis' views, people deserve a dignified, just punishment, that affirms they are indeed "human beings created in the image of God". It seems, from what you tell me, that that is exactly not what your prison system does, it degrades them as humans so they come out worse than they went in. Not all punishment is just, and (therefore) not all punishment is dignified. So in summary I still see no justification for capital punishment. I don't see it as necessary to prevent people form killing again; I don't see it as effective to deter others from murdering; and I don't see it as justice, because it does not resolve the conflict, it only ends it. I only see it as a bad influence on society, condoning violence and vengeance. |
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| Snofox Kari | Jan 24 2010, 02:16 PM Post #244 |
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Protector of the Winter Forest
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by all means digress! really? i never heard of that...i guess they'd get the death penalty anyway (unless they are caught they might get life...after death and death if they are caught alive )what a paradox i get from this now my head is going incircles trying to wrap around this possibility and it fails
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| towr | Jan 24 2010, 03:46 PM Post #245 |
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Defender of the pie
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In some cases I can understand it, if they kill themselves in a way that endangers others (but then, that falls just as well under reckless endangerment). A lot of countries have, or had, such laws though. Maybe having it be a felony, instead of a misdemeanor, makes it easier to force psychiatric treatment on them. Otherwise I don't really see the point. |
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| Elystriana | Jan 24 2010, 08:46 PM Post #246 |
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Guardian and Healer of the Silyena Woods
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Do digress, please. I'm not even bothering to read those huge posts. Too....many....words.
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| TheDeepDark | Jan 24 2010, 11:20 PM Post #247 |
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Where light goes to die
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Towr got it fairly close. To the best I've been able to determine, they made it a felony so that attempted suicide is still a serious enough violation that they can take the person into custody and get them treated. Still, it does seem paradoxical. But then, that's more common than one might think in law... One of the central states has a law on the books that if two trains meet where the tracks cross, neither train can proceed until the other has passed. |
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| Jack | Jan 24 2010, 11:21 PM Post #248 |
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I must say, Me, that you are WAAAAY too stuck on the Old Testament. It's like you ignored everything I said. We have a different set of rules now - ones that supersede the old Law. While you're at it, you might as well claim that Jesus was irrelevant! He came to fulfill the law. The Sacrifice has been made. Now our job is to go out and tell the world about it, NOT start calling for people's deaths. Are there people that deserve it? According to us, yes. But remember that God would have accepted Hitler, Stalin, or Mao into the kingdom, if they'd repented. You have to give them that chance - and capital punishment doesn't do that. From what I'm reading, I'm not seeing that. And, when you think about it, all of civilization's laws are based on vengeance. "You can't do this - because if you do, we'll do THIS to you." That's reciprocation, not justice. Now, the only reason God is the exception is because, well, He made us AND the Law. So He has every right. We don't. Edited by Jack, Jan 24 2010, 11:24 PM.
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| TheDeepDark | Jan 25 2010, 12:49 AM Post #249 |
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Where light goes to die
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Balancing Old and New without over-emphasizing (or completely ignoring) one for the other is a difficult proposition few accomplish. Both are valid as scripture and as much as with anything else, "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it." having said that, let's mention some more bizarre laws on the books! In Georgia, it is illegal for a woman to walk along the highway unless she is armed. It is illegal to fish from the back of a horse in New Jersey. I believe it's Colorado where it's still on the books that you can shoot an indian from the seat of a stagecoach (not that I would try it. They'd tend to chase you with trucks and rifles). Edited by TheDeepDark, Jan 25 2010, 12:49 AM.
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| Snofox Kari | Jan 25 2010, 01:13 AM Post #250 |
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Protector of the Winter Forest
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yes and i suppose it makes sense...but it doesnt...i mean if i really wanted to kill myself (not just a cry for help) then no one can stop me (what's more cruel? allowing someone to commit suicide or forcing them to suffer a life that is eating away at them like an acid slowly degrading them piece by peice until there is nothing left but a hollow shell in a hollow existance where no one really seems to care because they are to busy worrying about your physical health that they forget that it is your mental/emotional health that is in immediet danger with all the bickering and lies and backstabbing that is driving you to the edge dangling from a thread at the neck while you slowly suffocate through it all?) |
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| Jack | Jan 25 2010, 01:23 AM Post #251 |
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Well put.
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| Elystriana | Jan 25 2010, 01:55 AM Post #252 |
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Guardian and Healer of the Silyena Woods
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What sort of person would try fishing from the back of a horse? .......... Now I want to try it.
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| Jack | Jan 25 2010, 03:00 AM Post #253 |
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Just don't try it in NJ.
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| Elystriana | Jan 25 2010, 03:37 AM Post #254 |
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Guardian and Healer of the Silyena Woods
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There's no way I want to go to New Jersey. Far to populated for my taste. |
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| Jack | Jan 25 2010, 04:04 AM Post #255 |
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Yeah, well, people from Jersey tend to be a rude bunch, too. |
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now my head is going incircles trying to wrap around this possibility
and it fails


7:20 PM Jul 11