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Okay, seriously....
Topic Started: Mar 14 2010, 04:52 AM (3,208 Views)
towr
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Jason
Mar 23 2010, 01:06 PM
Well, according to God, you're a sinner from the moment you're born.
Well, call me a Blasphemer if you must, but I'll have to disagree with 'God' on that. If you haven't done anything, you cannot be blamed for anything.

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They're punished before that? Really?
The genetic defects are there from the moment of conception, so in that sense, yeah.

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So in other words, they really are people inside the mother, not useless lumps of flesh?
From around the third trimester onwards. A fetus can survive outside the womb from about 26 weeks onwards or so. Birth is a rather arbitrary point to foist sin on someone that could just as easily have been brought into the world a bit sooner or later.
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Jack
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towr
 
Well, call me a Blasphemer if you must, but I'll have to disagree with 'God' on that. If you haven't done anything, you cannot be blamed for anything.
*dryly* Like I said, God rarely fits our perception of Him. If you don't like it, that's your problem, but that doesn't change Him. And according to Him, you're a sinner from the moment you're born...and actually, I think Isaiah also mentions something about that...I've gotta go look that up, 'scuse me.
towr
 
The genetic defects are there from the moment of conception, so in that sense, yeah.
So according to your argument, abortion should be illegal, because that would be killing someone who is already 'being punished'.
towr
 
From around the third trimester onwards. A fetus can survive outside the womb from about 26 weeks onwards or so. Birth is a rather arbitrary point to foist sin on someone that could just as easily have been brought into the world a bit sooner or later.
What's so arbitrary about that? First contact with a fallen world.
Edited by Jack, Mar 23 2010, 01:19 PM.
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towr
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Jason
Mar 23 2010, 01:19 PM
*dryly* Like I said, God rarely fits our perception of Him. If you don't like it, that's your problem, but that doesn't change Him.
As long as you realize that applies to you as much as me, I'm perfectly happy to leave it at that.

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So according to your argument, abortion should be illegal
In the third trimester, if there aren't very good reasons to do so (such as saving the life of the mother), then yes. But I have no problems with first term abortions at all; and I'm willing to compromise on the second term. In general, if a fetus is viable, in the sense that it can survive outside the womb, then I think it should get the chance to.
Ultimately when medical progress allows it, hopefully we get to a place where it can be avoided to everyone's satisfaction; for example by transplanting the fetus of a woman that doesn't want it to someone that does, or by gestating it in an artificial womb outside the body.

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What's so arbitrary about that? First contact with a fallen world.
I suppose that's one way to look at it. But I don't see something instantly corrupted just by contact.
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Jack
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towr
 
As long as you realize that applies to you as much as me, I'm perfectly happy to leave it at that.
Of course it does. I'm using the limited terminology I have to describe God as He is described in the Bible.
towr
 
In the third trimester, if there aren't very good reasons to do so (such as saving the life of the mother), then yes. But I have no problems with first term abortions at all; and I'm willing to compromise on the second term. In general, if a fetus is viable, in the sense that it can survive outside the womb, then I think it should get the chance to.
Ultimately when medical progress allows it, hopefully we get to a place where it can be avoided to everyone's satisfaction; for example by transplanting the fetus of a woman that doesn't want it to someone that does, or by gestating it in an artificial womb outside the body.
But according to your argument, the baby is being punished from the moment of conception due to a genetic defect. So you're saying that punishment can apply to those who do not understand it, even when you just said that babies can't be born sinners because they lack the physical capacity to sin?
towr
 
I suppose that's one way to look at it. But I don't see something instantly corrupted just by contact.
Ah. 'Seeing is believing'. I don't buy that, if you'll pardon my bluntness.
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Snofox Kari
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:rolleyes:
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Jack
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Oh, now see what you've done, Kari?
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Snofox Kari
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no one said anything about my last argument...i have won ;)
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Jack
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If winning now constitutes doing nothing, then yes. ;)
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Snofox Kari
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i took the last word no one contested...no contest = win...it's over
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Jack
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Keep tellin' y'self that, darling.
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Snofox Kari
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i keep hinting to you rather openly...and you still say nothing about it...oh i am too good ^^_
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Jack
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*snicker* Of course you are, dear. *pats Kari on the head*
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towr
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Jason
Mar 23 2010, 01:35 PM
Of course it does. I'm using the limited terminology I have to describe God as He is described in the Bible.
I have a different reading of that; and considering there are some 1500 different denominations of Christianity in the US alone, I'm not the only one. A lot of people will be wrong, and a lot of us will have to live with that and hope it doesn't matter as much as some seem to think it does.
Personally, I hope God gives grades for effort, cause else we're all screwed.

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But according to your argument, the baby is being punished from the moment of conception due to a genetic defect.
I had quotes around 'punished' for a reason. The genetic defects are there from the start. They don't appear only after the baby has "made first contact with a fallen world". So it precedes the assumption of sin by about 9 months in the usual case.

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So you're saying that punishment can apply to those who do not understand it
Suffering doesn't require much understanding; animals can suffer just fine. And so can a fetus in its third trimester; increasingly well as its nervous system develops.

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even when you just said that babies can't be born sinners because they lack the physical capacity to sin?
My point was more they haven't had time to sin; but come to think of it, you're right, I don't consider them capable of sinning for a good time afterwards. It's not just that it takes a while for the corruption to seep in, but they simply haven't got the capacity to tell right from wrong, and until they do they cannot be any more sinful than animals.
An assertion which of course blatantly disregards the notion that eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was the original sin (to save you the trouble of having to point that out).
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Snofox Kari
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Jason
Mar 23 2010, 01:50 PM
*snicker* Of course you are, dear. *pats Kari on the head*
aw i knew you'd admit it ^^ Posted Image
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Jack
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towr
 
I have a different reading of that; and considering there are some 1500 different denominations of Christianity in the US alone, I'm not the only one. A lot of people will be wrong, and a lot of us will have to live with that and hope it doesn't matter as much as some seem to think it does.
Personally, I hope God gives grades for effort, cause else we're all screwed.
Yes, but I'm non-denominational. There's a reason - specifically, we don't pick and choose which parts of the Bible we like and which parts we don't. Jesus taught more on Hell than anybody else in the New Testament, so given that He's the Son of God, He ought to know plenty more than I do. I'll take His Word for it. There's no 'interpretation for me, interpretation for you' when it comes to the Bible. There's a difference in how it applies to different people's lives, but that doesn't change the truth.
towr
 
I had quotes around 'punished' for a reason. The genetic defects are there from the start. They don't appear only after the baby has "made first [sic] contact with a fallen world". So it precedes the assumption of sin by about 9 months in the usual case.
That's not my point. My point is, you're arguing that people don't deserve any punishment at all until they sin, but that with your ideals, they're punished before they can sin. It just sounds like you're intimating that God is unjust.
towr
 
An assertion which of course blatantly disregards the notion that eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was the original sin (to save you the trouble of having to point that out).
Yes, well, I wouldn't even call that the original sin. The original sin was pride - what Satan played on to get Eve to take the fruit.
towr
 
Suffering doesn't require much understanding; animals can suffer just fine. And so can a fetus in its third trimester; increasingly well as its nervous system develops.
Going back to what I said before, you're arguing that God is unjust.
towr
 
My point was more they haven't had time to sin;
...so far as you know...
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but come to think of it, you're right, I don't consider them capable of sinning for a good time afterwards. It's not just that it takes a while for the corruption to seep in, but they simply haven't got the capacity to tell right from wrong, and until they do they cannot be any more sinful than animals.
According to God, we can tell right from wrong, thanks to Adam and Eve.
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