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Okay, seriously....
Topic Started: Mar 14 2010, 04:52 AM (3,207 Views)
towr
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Jason
Mar 23 2010, 02:07 PM
There's no 'interpretation for me, interpretation for you' when it comes to the Bible.
Different people do interpret the bible differently. You can try to argue that there is only one correct way to read it, but many people disagree with what the correct reading is -- even if they think there is only one, and that it is obviously theirs.

For my part, I don't believe in the inerrancy of the bible in the first place. So that opens up a whole world of uncertainty about how to find its true message. But if I don't risk being wrong, I don't risk being right either.

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That's not my point. My point is, you're arguing that people don't deserve any punishment at all until they sin, but that with your ideals, they're punished before they can sin. It just sounds like you're intimating that God is unjust.
I don't consider suffering a punishment. I only called it 'punishment' because you seemed to assert that suffering is a punishment. If it were punishment, then I would say it was unjust; but I don't think it is either.

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Going back to what I said before, you're arguing that God is unjust.
No, I'm not, really. Justice has nothing to do with it in my view. To put it loosely, I think that suffering exist by necessity, to allow us free will. It gives meaning to the human experience.
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towr
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Jason
Mar 23 2010, 02:07 PM
towr
 
They don't appear only after the baby has "made first [sic] contact with a fallen world".
Why the [sic]?
It's nearly a direct quote from what you said before:
Jason
Mar 23 2010, 01:19 PM
What's so arbitrary about that? First contact with a fallen world.
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Jack
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towr
 
Different people do interpret the bible differently. You can try to argue that there is only one correct way to read it, but many people disagree with what the correct reading is -- even if they think there is only one, and that it is obviously theirs.

For my part, I don't believe in the inerrancy of the bible in the first place. So that opens up a whole world of uncertainty about how to find its true message. But if I don't risk being wrong, I don't risk being right either.
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." -Revelation 22:18-19

Believe it all or believe none of it. Like I said before, it's not pick-and-choose.
towr
 
I don't consider suffering a punishment. I only called it 'punishment' because you seemed to assert that suffering is a punishment. If it were punishment, then I would say it was unjust; but I don't think it is either.

No, I'm not, really. Justice has nothing to do with it in my view. To put it loosely, I think that suffering exist by necessity, to allow us free will. It gives meaning to the human experience.
How does that work, if you don't mind me asking?
towr
 
Why the [sic]?
It's nearly a direct quote from what you said before:
Nearly direct isn't direct. I don't think you changed the meaning, but it's a part of proper English grammar to include that correction.
Edited by Jack, Mar 23 2010, 04:08 PM.
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Snofox Kari
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:-/ ?
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Me
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@Jason:
Oh, you're an Equal Opportunity Heretic, too? (which is to say, Non Denominational) :lol:

On the Satanist bit: Well first, many of them don't think they are worshiping Satan - they think they worship life and pleasure. The three main Satanists are: Theistic Satanist, Traditional Satanists, and Luciferians - unless you're talking to the latter of the type, if you ask if they worship Satan, most of them will say no. (No, I'm not defending them, I'm just saying most of them are screwed up to thinking (direct quote from a Satanist) "Hail Satan = Hail me! It's self worship, not the devil.") Which I find interesting.
Second, wull.. being wary of something is not the same as fearing it. Sure I don't have to be afraid for myself, and I'm not. But Satanists are good at revenge (It's number five in the ten commandments in the Satanic bible: "Satan believes in vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek.") toward the people they don't like, and they're smart: to people like you and me where family obviously means a lot, what's a smart person going to target? Only an idiot would target their actual victim when what they love most is available. :rolleyes: You don't KILL your enemies, you make them watch what you do to their lives and make sure they live to see it. That is the best possible revenge you could have. And after reading some of their stuff, revenge is quite drastic. I would avoid ticking one off because I wouldn't want to run the risk of getting one of my family cursed for my obnoxiousness. <shrug> If you're on your own, you can throw caution to the wind. If other people can be dragged down with you, walk away.
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I don't consider suffering a punishment. I only called it 'punishment' because you seemed to assert that suffering is a punishment. If it were punishment, then I would say it was unjust; but I don't think it is either.

No, I'm not, really. Justice has nothing to do with it in my view. To put it loosely, I think that suffering exist by necessity, to allow us free will. It gives meaning to the human experience.
*raises hand* I agree with towr on that.
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Jack
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You're missing the point, Dearie - my hope is in Christ. Nothing can be done to my life to shake that hope. Absolutely nothing.
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Me
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.. I don't think I missed that... I compare the Devil and his minions to a chained up rabid dog. Don't be afraid of it, but at the same time, don't go looking for trouble by approaching it and sticking your hand out. Make sense?
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Jack
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Oh...oh...haha...

I wasn't suggesting going out and getting into direct confrontation, Hell no. I just meant that Satan doesn't frighten me. Primarily because even tho' he's a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour, he can't even handle Michael and Gabriel, let alone God. And I'm on God's team.
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Me
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That's because it doesn't make sense to join a losing one. We agree.

Oh, I found out today: Did you know it is horribly and politically incorrect to play "I'm in the Lord's Army" now? Seriously.
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Jack
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Oh goodie. :evil: Fun fun fun.
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Me
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Watch. I'm going to teach my little Sunday School Class that song and we're gonna sing it from the rooftops. :lol: (And I may get in trouble, but it SHALL be worth it)
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Jack
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Oh yes. And I want to help.

Besides, any lawyer worth his salt would have a field day with that ("Freedom of speech!").
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Me
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We do things differently than the other classes, that's for sure. I teach them songs and stuff after lesson is done - and we have the grandest time.

Don't get me started.. I have heard SO much on that argument...
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Jack
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Well, that's my point. A lawyer would love that kind of civil rights case.

But yeah...when I was in a church that had Sunday school, my Sunday school classes were taught my parents. Fortunately our current church (which is a house church) doesn't. :D
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TheDeepDark
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towr
Mar 23 2010, 12:52 PM
What have infants born with a genetic disease done to deserve it? How have they broken any Law before they were born?
I don't believe humanity's sufferings are a punishment, overall. It's a chance to prove we're human, by eliminating as much of it as we can on our own. It would be a worthless life to have everything just thrown in your lap.
"Wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin;" -Moroni 8:8, Book of Mormon

The mormon view on pre-mortal life clears this question up considerably. The children have not sinned, and were aware that this would be one of their challenges (or often, moreso a challenge for their parents and family). Mortality is one of multiple stages in our ultimate progression - some have progressed farther prior to birth than others and so primarily are born in order only to obtain their physical body.

It is an opportunity for those around the child to humble themselves and increase their own faith.
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