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| Topic Started: Jan 28 2017, 12:17 PM (362 Views) | |
| ragnarokio | Jan 28 2017, 01:51 PM Post #31 |
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Postmaster General
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chess is still alive and well as a sport, and humans are the ones that are competing, not machines, its just the way that humans are thinking has changed, and that they're using machines to enhance their physical capabilities. |
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| pantsukun | Jan 28 2017, 01:55 PM Post #32 |
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Postmaster General
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what if they make a computer to brute force chess and then use that knowledge to make a computer simulation of the entire universe i remember after that go match between deepmind and sedol there were already ppl on the subreddit studying the computer's moves and trying to make sense of them i wonder if they were ever successful or nah |
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| ragnarokio | Jan 28 2017, 02:05 PM Post #33 |
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Postmaster General
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the computer made a few moves which were considered suboptimal and its likely that they were actually just suboptimal moves and not secretly good moves that people had overlooked which is what some people were excited about. Most of its moves had fairly obvious meanings. The main reason its play was so oppressive was because its reading was nearly perfect and it never really slipped up, which didn't mesh well with lee's strategy of dragging his opponents into complicated fights, which the computer was essentially able to read perfectly, thus defeating lee at his own game. Its impossible to simulate a perfect model of our universe in our universe, unless you consider our universe itself to be a simulation of itself, which doesn't really mean anything. There are limits to how much you can compute. Computers are becoming more and more efficient while remaining roughly the same size, because the pieces are becoming smaller and smaller, but they'll hit a physical limit eventually. I don't know if its feasible to make subatomic computer parts, but even if it is they'll hit an absolute brick wall at the planck distance. Once you have the most efficient computer possible, made from the smallest parts, you can then start chaining those parts together to make the largest possible computer, and once you've used all of the material in the universe to make a computer out of the smallest parts, you have the strongest computer possible to build in our universe, and it wouldn't be able to simulate our universe in perfect detail. It might not even be able to brute-force chess. |
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| pantsukun | Jan 28 2017, 02:12 PM Post #34 |
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Postmaster General
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wow that stone cold computer i wonder if there is anthropomorphized fanart of it somewhere what if humanity didn't eat itself and lived to like the year 6900 and had a lot of computing power plus like compression algorithm deals we are very close to hitting the limit of shrinking processor sizes and we've already skipped a crucial thing in mooreslaw w/kaby lake |
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| ragnarokio | Jan 28 2017, 02:23 PM Post #35 |
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Postmaster General
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if you made a computer using all of the material in the universe, there would be no material left for humans to be made of, so humans wouldn't exist. depending on which chess ruleset you use, there are potentially significantly more possible chess games than there are atoms in the universe, although possibly not planck volumes in the universe. apparently the number of possible go games dwarfs the number of planck volumes in the universe though |
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| ragnarokio | Jan 28 2017, 02:25 PM Post #36 |
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Postmaster General
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i'm not sure if that means they are un-brunte-forceable though, since it depends on the nature of the kind of algorithms you would use, and i don't know enough about those kinds of algorithms to know if there are tricks that would let you use time rather than space to calculate with large numbers |
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| pantsukun | Jan 28 2017, 02:29 PM Post #37 |
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Postmaster General
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i guess u would only need the amount of computing power to make the parts of the universe that would b visible to us or other intelligent life and the rest could b compressed somehow tho idk how that would even begin to work wow i would like to see that brute force chart of chess or go games tho even a small part of it would probably b massive and complicated and i would glance at it for a few seconds like "cool" before i closed the tab |
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| ragnarokio | Jan 28 2017, 02:48 PM Post #38 |
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Postmaster General
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the longest possible go game is at least 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 turns long if you drew a go brute force diagram that only went down 400 layers there would be 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 possible games if you drew it to have the full 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 layers it would have a lot of possible games, and that's just the lower bound of possible games. There might be more, but we can't tell how many there are yet. I wanted to post the actual number here so you could compare the size difference with the number of zeroes, but it was too big. It was too big to make in a text file either. Ten Trecadillion is a number with forty-three zeroes. It looks like this "10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000", I think. The lower-bound on the number of possible go games is a number with ten trecadillion digits. comparatively, the number of atoms in the universe is around 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 and the number of planck volumes in the universe is around 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000, which are both incomprehensibly lower |
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| ragnarokio | Jan 28 2017, 02:54 PM Post #39 |
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Postmaster General
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one character in a text file should be around a byte in size. A file that contained just the number describing the lower bound of the number of possible go games would then be about 10 trecadillion bytes, which i think would be somewhere in the realm of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000TB youtube apparently probably has somewhere around 400,000TB of storage, so I'm guessing that just storing this number in a plaintext file might take more storage space than currently exists on the earth's computers. and i spent a few minutes trying to post it in this thread before figuring that it probably wasn't practical |
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| pantsukun | Jan 28 2017, 02:56 PM Post #40 |
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Postmaster General
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daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang 1 with 10 decadillion digits i wonder what u would even call that i guess it depends on how long humanity lasts and whether or not we will have the social structures necessary for all these noice tech advances tho there are things i would like to see more than that like food replicators or w/e |
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