| Welcome to Kunlun Journal Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit. Kunlun Journal Forum is intended to help develop a community of like-minded people who want to read, watch, and talk about wuxia and Chinese historical fiction/movies. But the discussion is not limited to only these topics. Feel free to talk about anything here. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| The Water Margin/The Marshes of Mt. Liang; Playing card pictures of the outlaws of the marsh | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2011, 12:49 AM (1,147 Views) | |
| RSid | Apr 20 2011, 12:49 AM Post #1 |
|
Dizi (弟子)
|
I'm not sure whether I should post this in wuxia or not, but it seemed like the most relevant place. I'm in a class on Chinese martial arts tradition in literature and film, and we're currently reading Water Margin. We've gotten to read a lot of different versions of the stories (I don't read Chinese, so I got a lot out of seeing English translations of various versions), including a transcription of an oral storyteller's version, and to watch several film interpretations. It's been really cool thinking about different ways martial arts can be presented and what each one means, and I thought people here might be interested in looking at some of the material we've been working with. Anyway, that's kind of a rambling intro, but we recently got PDFs for the class of an ancient card game in which each card was illustrated with a character from the Water Margin and a classmate of mine posted modern pictures of the same outlaws that come as trading cards in ramen snack packs. I thought people here might be interested in looking at the two together--and maybe someone can translate what the ancient cards say? |
![]() |
|
| RSid | Apr 20 2011, 12:57 AM Post #2 |
|
Dizi (弟子)
|
Sorry, apparently the second picture file (the modern ones) is too big to post, but if someone wants to see it I can email it to them! |
![]() |
|
| JohnD | Apr 20 2011, 01:00 AM Post #3 |
|
Xian (仙)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You can email it to me (kunlunjournal@gmail.com is fine) and I'll upload it somewhere. Or if you use Google Docs you can upload it there and post the link. Those are awesome pictures. Was there any mention of the card game maybe being a precursor to mahjong? Edited by JohnD, Apr 20 2011, 01:01 AM.
|
| Kunlun Journal of Chinese Historical Fiction | |
![]() |
|
| JohnD | Apr 20 2011, 01:04 AM Post #4 |
|
Xian (仙)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
So what do you think of Water Margin as a story? It's my favorite Chinese novel by far. I love how so many characters have such detailed backstories. |
| Kunlun Journal of Chinese Historical Fiction | |
![]() |
|
| ghostexorcist | Apr 20 2011, 05:36 AM Post #5 |
|
Tudi (徒弟)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I love it too. I believe I first learned of it while reading Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan. It mentions Lin Chong and Lu Junyi being two of Zhou Tong's former pupils. A fictional biography on Zhou Tong I have says he was originally the weapons tutor of the imperial guard, but he passed the position onto Lin Chong (a job he has in the original novel) when he retired. Here is a collection of beautiful 19th Japanese woodblock prints of the bandits by the famed Yoshitoshi. John has already seen them, but I'm sure others would like them as well: http://www.kuniyoshiproject.com/The%20108%20Heroes%20of%20the%20Popular%20Suikoden,%20Part%20I.htm I have a book with all of these plates in them. I showed them to my Chinese teachers, but they didn't like them. While they thought the technical skill of the prints were beyond criticism, they found the depictions of the heroes to be rather ugly. They envision them as being handsome, not homely. Take this plate of Wu Song for instance: ![]() or this one of the monk Lu Da: ![]() I think the pictures are gorgeous! |
![]() |
|
| JohnD | Apr 20 2011, 10:29 AM Post #6 |
|
Xian (仙)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I agree with your Chinese teachers, Ghost. I love Japanese landscape prints, but I've always thought Japanese portraits look really weird. It's a distinct style, that's for sure. Some of the characters in the novel, though, are supposed to be rather homely. Song Jiang is even described as having a swarthy complexion. These guys are heroes for their character and their accomplishments, not for their looks. I do love the colors in those Japanese prints. |
| Kunlun Journal of Chinese Historical Fiction | |
![]() |
|
| Yeung Hong | Apr 21 2011, 12:35 AM Post #7 |
![]()
Tudi (徒弟)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I agree, those prints look very Japanicized (if that's a real word) and some look more like Samurai than Chinese warriors.
Well, Yang Zhi and Lu Zhishen are kinda famous for both. |
![]() |
|
| RSid | Apr 21 2011, 12:58 AM Post #8 |
|
Dizi (弟子)
|
Here's a link to a googledoc of the modern pictures: 108 Heroes Our professors says that there are only one or two scholarly articles about the card game, and that they basically say 'we have no idea how to play this game, more study is needed'. So I'm not sure. It's a shame, I kind of wanted to figure out how to play a game. I've always really liked Japanese prints, and I think they are pretty gorgeous myself. The grotesqueness of the figures seems apropos for these characters. Also, that's about exactly how I would picture Lu Da, given the kind of stuff he gets up to :p I'm enjoying the Water Margin a lot--mainly for the reason you described, the deftness of how so many different backstories are interwoven. The way the story will come onstage (so to speak) with one character and walk off with another without any ceremony makes it seem a lot like music. Certainly I think it has ups and downs; some parts are beautiful and some parts are much clunkier (or more filled with descriptions of vomiting). But the overall effect is great. I really love what a rich source it has been for other things too, what with all the movies/tv shows/other retellings of it. |
![]() |
|
| Yeung Hong | Apr 21 2011, 01:08 AM Post #9 |
![]()
Tudi (徒弟)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Are you sure all of those pictures (from the googledocs link) are portrayals of characters from the Water Margin? Two on the far right look a lot like contemporary portrayals of Zhao Yun and Lu Bu respectively while two from the top row look like Guan Gong. |
![]() |
|
| JohnD | Apr 21 2011, 01:45 AM Post #10 |
|
Xian (仙)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I think the Guan Yu looking guy on the top, wearing green, is supposed to be Guan Sheng, as he was supposed to be descended from Guan Yu. The pictures seem to follow the same character order as that of the wikipedia article. You can see the table here. The other Guan Yu-ish character on the top, in purple, should be Zhu Tong, who had a beard like Guan Yu's. Song Jiang looks way too heroic in his picture. |
| Kunlun Journal of Chinese Historical Fiction | |
![]() |
|
| Yeung Hong | Apr 21 2011, 07:51 AM Post #11 |
![]()
Tudi (徒弟)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yeah, I totally forgot about Sheng which is kind of sad considering he was one of my favourite characters. I think you're right about Zhu Tong, but I don't distinctly recall anyone other than Sheng having "a ruddy complexion" like Guan Gong. It must just be the characterisation (also, is it just me or does Duan Jingzhu look strangely Caucasian?). |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Chinese · Next Topic » |



Shuihu_Playing_Cards.pdf (1.41 MB)





![]](http://i.imgur.com/SvA1T.png)



5:00 PM Jul 11

