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| Hawk aft fuselage and tailcone; A highly elusive beast. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 16 2011, 05:40 AM (2,332 Views) | |
| pincelli | Feb 16 2011, 05:40 AM Post #1 |
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Plastic fiddler
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Hello everyone, Just posted this info in a thread on Britmodeller and thought I'd share it over here as well. This is a part of the Hawk airframe that I have been obsessed with getting right on my models and figured I'd share my research with you all. I have identified a total of 4 aft fuselage/tailcone configurations on the Hawk T1 during its history. From what I can tell in online photos, there are two still in use (versions 3 and 4). I will try to illustrate all of them below. I apologize in advance to those whose photos I've copied from elswhere online or whose photos I've butchered during cropping. Here are the four styles I have Identified for the T1: Version 1 (Very early production. Note the short fin fillet and how the top of the aft fuselage "rounds down". Also note the amount of vertical surface above the exhaust): ![]() ![]() Version 1 on a Red Arrows Hawk: ![]() Version 2 (retrofitted fairly early to address some directional stability issues. Note how the top of the aft fuselage does not round down and is almost a straight line with the spine of the aircraft. The rudder fillet is also extended from that used with version 1): ![]() ![]() ![]() Version 2 on a Red Arrows Hawk: ![]() Version 3 ![]() ![]() ![]() Version 4 (Same style as fitted to Mk 50 and 60 series Hawks from the beginning. Incorporates drag chute door, which does not appear to be used for that purpose on teh T1. Incidentally, this is the same basic design that is used on teh T-45 and T2, and other 100 series Hawks with some minor variations in antenna and drag chute door fittings) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Variation of Version 4 on a RAAF Hawk 127 ![]() Variation of Version 4 on a T-45: ![]() I do not yet have a copy of the Revell Hawk, but from all the photos posted online, it appears to me that Revell have molded the kit with an aft fuselage and tailcone that most closely resembles version 1. They have included optional parts with which they attempt to represent some of the other configurations, including an extended fin fillet. This is a very elusive area of the Hawk for kit manuafactureres to get the shape right. It is tough to interpret photos due to all of the complex shapes all coming together on that part of the airplane. Once I have a Revell Hawk in hand I most likely will master a resin replacement for TwoMikes to represent version 4 and possibly version 3. It'll be a while before I pull that off though, so enjoy the kit as is for the time being guys. It looks like a beauty and I will probably build my first kit out of the box to represent a very early Hawk. (I know, that means the ejection seats will need new headboxes..) Hope this helps clarify things on the tailcone. Cheers, Gabe |
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| Mark M | Feb 16 2011, 08:27 AM Post #2 |
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Hawk T1
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gabe dont panic! revell have made 3 tail cones! and 2 lots of rudder finlets ill try and post piccs asap! im more interested in the RED / ORANGE 'red arrow' ive never seen it do you know the serial? or have anymore pictures |
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| Mark M | Feb 16 2011, 09:00 AM Post #3 |
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Hawk T1
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ok long finlet ![]() short finlet ![]() 3 tail cones ![]() reds ![]() version 2 and 3 ![]() hope this helps i guess to make the version 4 take 2 cut the nib off and scratch a bit of detail |
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| pincelli | Feb 16 2011, 01:22 PM Post #4 |
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Plastic fiddler
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Thanks for all those pics Mark. They will help with my planning for when I finally get one in my hot little hands! I think the "ORANGE" on the "RED/ORANGE" Red Arrow is just due to sun angle. I think it's a standard Red Arrow. |
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| pincelli | Feb 16 2011, 01:26 PM Post #5 |
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Plastic fiddler
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Mark, Any chance of a close up picrure of the profile of the aft fuselage parts? I'm trying to figure out for sure if the upper fuselage is "rounded down" like version 1 or if it is more flat like 2 through 3. Not going to "ding" Revell for doing one version over another. My hope is to do resin replacements that will give to modeller the option of doing whatever isn't included in the kit. Thanks! |
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| Mark M | Feb 16 2011, 02:45 PM Post #6 |
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Hawk T1
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ill do some later im waiting for paint to dry at the moment |
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| Mark M | Feb 16 2011, 06:43 PM Post #7 |
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Hawk T1
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hope these help![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| Phil B | Feb 17 2011, 12:29 AM Post #8 |
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Filler and Sander
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What an excellent treatise Gabe. I've long wanted to really sort out the differences but you've done it all. It looks to me like your version 2,3 and 4 all have the same basic fuselage shape with differing treatments above the exhaust depending on whether there is a braking 'chute or if its a T-45! The extended fin fillet has always been easy to see but I hadn't noticed the difference in tailcone contours between versions 1 and 2 on RAF Hawks but looking at your pictures along with Aeroguide No 1 I see it now. That was published in 1983 so the version 2 tailcone was around by then. The comparison between the two Red Arrows shots shows it up very well with the extension at the top of the plate which carries the brackets for the diesel/dye pipes. I see the tailplane sealing plates are also taller on the 3 later versions. I've just compared the old and new 1/72 Airfix kits and they resemble versions 1 and 2 respectively. I'm with you Gabe on the early Hawk idea although they're my preference anyway. Phil |
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| pincelli | Feb 17 2011, 03:36 AM Post #9 |
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Plastic fiddler
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They help a whole lot Mark. Thanks a bunch for posting them. It looks to me like Revell have done an outstanding job at capturing the early style. Whether you want an early one or a late one, this is a major victory for Hawk builders since I don't really think any manufacturer pror to this has accurately captured any version. Most builders will most likely care about this far less than me. It just happens to be the main part of the airframe where my AMS seems to kick in. It doesn't help that I look at version 4 at work every day! Anyway, your 19 sqn build looks like it's shaping up nicely, Mark. Can't wait to see it finished! |
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| pincelli | Feb 17 2011, 04:10 AM Post #10 |
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Plastic fiddler
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Thanks Phil. I've often wondered whether anyone else had noticed that there were differences (or cared). What puzzles me is why BAe and the RAF ever bothered with versions 2 and 3 if version 4 was being installed on export Hawks from the start. As you noted, version 2 was being used in 1983 when the Aeroguide was published. When "Hawk Comes of Age" was published in 1995, all of the RAF Hawks shown had version 2 while exports had version 4. Why was version 3 installed on some Hawks when most ended up with version 4? Anyone out there know anyone "in the know". Just curious. This has long been an area of the airframe that I have obsessed over when I should just enjoy building the model. Maybe a case of knowing the subject too well since I see version 4 at work every day. BTW, you are correct that the new Airfix 1/72 kit is a very nice representation of version 2. Very easy to update it to version 3 and 4 if you are looking to do those. very nice kit overall, in fact. I will eventually master a resin late tailcone for the Revell kit, but first I will most likely do a camouflaged early version. However, Mark's 19 Sqn build has me tempted to go straight to black! Cheers! |
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| Phil B | Feb 18 2011, 01:22 PM Post #11 |
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Filler and Sander
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Incidentally, the change from version 1 to 2 came about as a result of early testing and was apparently proposed by Fred Sutton, who was Hawker Siddeley's Chief Flight Development Engineer at the time, in order to cure a directional instability. It became known as "Fred's Rear End"! This story appears in many Hawk references but there's a very nice summary of Hawk and T-45 developments on-line in the Hawker Association's newsletter here: Hawker Association newsletter 2004 I've always assumed the mod was only the extended fin fillet. I hadn't realised the top line of the rear fuselage was raised as well. Phil |
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| davedubya | Feb 18 2011, 02:19 PM Post #12 |
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Airbrush master
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Without trying to complicate things further, but I'm sure I've seen a fifth Hawk tailcone variation at some point (possibly at an airshow on static display) with a bulbous tail piece above the exhaust. (In a separate point regarding the colour of Red Arrows, I believe there have been three different red colours used - one was a somewhat more magenta-red, the current red scheme, and there was a more orangey-red during the early years of the team) |
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| Rob M. | Feb 18 2011, 08:41 PM Post #13 |
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Plastic fiddler
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Might well be a spin chute. Rob |
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| davedubya | Feb 18 2011, 11:08 PM Post #14 |
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Airbrush master
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I've remembered that I saw it when I was in Canada at CFB Borden. Probably means it was a CT-155 variant, if that makes much difference. |
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| pincelli | Feb 19 2011, 01:34 AM Post #15 |
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Plastic fiddler
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Thanks for the newsetter Phil. Very interesting to read. I was aware that the change from version 1 to 2 was to correct the direction instability, but stil wonder why there have been so many variations. I'm sure there are good reasons, but it just seems to me like version 3 was an extra version that didn't need to ever happen if version 4 had already been developed as the Hawk matured. It's not really important, but just has my curiosity up. Thanks again for sharing the newsletter! Gabe |
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