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| F35 cant dogfight......... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 1 2015, 08:21 PM (77 Views) | |
| beowulf | Jul 1 2015, 08:21 PM Post #1 |
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Lt. Paul 'Red Dog' Rose
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dont know how true this is.... https://medium.com/war-is-boring/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875 |
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| Nikon User | Jul 1 2015, 08:48 PM Post #2 |
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"BEAVER"
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Interesting to read. I have to confess that it couldn't bring my opinion of Dave any lower than it was already though! |
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| tc2324 | Jul 1 2015, 09:17 PM Post #3 |
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LCDR Tony `Banana's` Clay
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Dont like Dave myself either..., .... but saying that, in this case, I was always under the impression that Dave was more a strike platform that would hit targets with either an F-22 escort or air superiority already achieved? Don`t think it was ever designed to `dogfight`. |
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| thomasweir | Jul 1 2015, 09:26 PM Post #4 |
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Rivet Counter
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Thats the trouble with stealth, fly in a straight line and nobody can see you and you can accomplish your goal. Start jinking about and it all goes to pot I was at the trade show at Farnborough a few years ago and rumours were abound from respected aviation journalists that RAF Typhoon pilots were forbidden to engage in mock combat with F-22's anymore as previous exercises showed up the F-22's deficiencies with the Typhoon coming out top gun 80% of the time. Always makes you wonder why they stopped at 187, The Typhoon or that they are all rotting away from the inside out. |
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| Mark M | Jul 1 2015, 09:46 PM Post #5 |
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Hawk T1
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Here comes the sea typhoon |
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| DevilFish | Jul 2 2015, 06:27 AM Post #6 |
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LCDR Paul "Voodoo" Carter
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The B version we are getting has always been heavier, less capable, carries less fuel, than the other variants. So, along with the cost, I can see why the government want it so much. Had it been a British project, it would have been cancelled somewhere after a dozen or so flights, probably just before the second prototype was due to fly. Only, in this case, no one would have been bothered!
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| Olde Farte | Jul 2 2015, 07:46 AM Post #7 |
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Lt. Derek 'Smurfy' Reeve
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Do the boys with the briefcases ever listen to the people at the sharp end? I read somewhere, probably Combat Aircraft, that the F-35 was never intended to dogfight being purely an attack weapon for the USMC and it is other countries that wanted the air defence capability. An aircraft that is being offered in 3 completely independent forms will never ever be master to my mind. The F-22 was designed as a stealth ADF and again the briefcase boys wanted to hang bombs on it. Just my informed opinion having read several articles but never an expert. Edited by Olde Farte, Jul 2 2015, 07:46 AM.
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| DLG Dave | Jul 2 2015, 07:59 AM Post #8 |
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Lt Dave 'Wraith' Carter
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Just on historical grounds, I remember accounts of both the A-7 and F/A18 in their respective development phases which authoritatively concluded just how rubbish an aeroplane they were. But on the grounds - quite specifically - of 'dogfighting', really, when was the last actual dogfight? Recent Greece\Turkey maybe - which has a fairly unique pedigree in regional and historical terms? Possibly there were very limited occasions between Israel and Syria in 1982 (although I wouldn't necessarily trust the objective reliability of some of the more allegedly informed commentators.) Falklands, Gulf War 1991 (and limited instances subsequent), Kosovo... were classic, more or less straightforward intercepts using ground control, BVR missiles etc. Up to, say, 1975, that kind of technology was still in a relative infancy. Sometimes it worked, often it didn't. So in the Middle East and in Vietnam there was a re-emergence of the importance of dogfighting to compensate for the unpredictable nature of any engagement. One of the famous lessons of that particular era was to affirm the importance of a fixed cannon within the airframe. But subsequent to Vietnam I'm not particularly aware of a 'dogfight' situation needing a cannon. There were rare occasions where Sea Harriers used their cannon in 1982 but again, these weren't dogfights, just rear-hemisphere shootdowns and in those cases, it was because the early specs for the Sea Harrier gave it only the two AAMs in in those instances, both missiles had been fired off previously. Personally, even if these claims for the F-35B were comprehensively accurate, I'm not sure if I particularly need to get excited about it. |
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| DevilFish | Jul 2 2015, 08:18 AM Post #9 |
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LCDR Paul "Voodoo" Carter
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You have to remember, Rules of Engagement state that a positive ID has to be made of the enemy. I.E, a visual ID. This precludes the use of BVR missiles, unless you have 2 flights. One goes in hard and fast to ID the target, while the second hangs back and fires missiles. Two problems there are that, A) the flight going in may get tangled up with the targets, ending up in a dogfight, and B) the flight hanging back and firing missiles would have to be very certain they have locked onto the correct aircraft... Just because we don't have the traditional WW1/2 style dogfights, aircraft will still have to be able to engage with enemy aircraft, even if just to get into a position to be able to fire a short range missile (or avoid being shot at themselves) |
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| Mark M | Jul 2 2015, 08:57 PM Post #10 |
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Hawk T1
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Rules of engagement can be changed in war |
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| Nikon User | Jul 2 2015, 09:16 PM Post #11 |
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"BEAVER"
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Stealth aircraft have puzzled me for a long time - but that's not difficult. The modern doctrine seems to be based around a show of force in the form of a "package" rather than individual aircraft going head to head and looking for a scrap. When one or more "stealth" aircraft are up to do some bombing, there is likely to be a non-stealth fighter escort, refuelling tankers and command & control aircraft airborne also. If this were the case, an enemy might not be able to see the stealth aircraft on radar, but they can guess they're in the air due to the others. In the early 80's I worked at Eastern Radar in Norfolk. When RAF Mildenhall launched an SR-71 going to the North East operationally, they did so under strict radio silence. We knew the jet would be airborne at a precise time. The problem was that some hours earlier, there was a stream of KC-135Q's also launching from Mildenhall at regular intervals flying to the North East, to refuel the SR-71 en-route. Even if us lowly operators hadn't been told the launch time by the Supervisor, we could guess, as one tanker would turn back and fly towards the Wash. This tanker would meet the departing '71 head to head and at a range of about 21 miles, the tanker would turn 180 degrees onto the same heading as the '71 was flying. When the tanker rolled out on the new heading, the '71 would be about 4 miles behind it at 26.000 feet in a good pre-contact position for its first refuelling. As you may have guessed, anyone with a suitable radar could see the tankers launch just as well as we could! Dave can be as stealthy as it wants to be, but other things might be a giveaway. |
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| RayS | Jul 3 2015, 02:00 AM Post #12 |
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FltLt. Ray 'Sharpshooter' Seppala
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Ahhh.... https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the-f-35-was-not-beaten-by-an-f-16/ |
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| DevilFish | Jul 3 2015, 06:11 AM Post #13 |
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LCDR Paul "Voodoo" Carter
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Knowing it's up and know where exactly it is are two different things. In a combat situation, tankers and AEW will not stray across enemy lines, and are generally up and about anyway. So just seeing these aircraft on you radar screen doesn't necessarily mean anything. As for escort fighters, well, the point of stealth is, you don't need them. |
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7:13 PM Jul 11