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Colin Kaepernick
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 30 2016, 03:22 PM (867 Views)
brumdog44 Aug 31 2016, 10:48 PM Post #16
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I think that, on its own, it's not an effective catalyst for change. So far, he's mainly just initiated conversation over the validity of "disrespecting" the flag and anthem as a form of protest, not elevated the conversation regarding systemic racism. As a person with a platform, it's to be seen where Kaepernick goes from here to make continued contributions towards that fight.

Regarding the act itself, I think it is a completely valid way to protest, and his logic is sound. The flag and anthem are symbols for the country as a whole. They're not the sole property of the military and the sacrifice of the men and women who've served. I understand that the military members have adopted those symbols as their own, and attached a lot of pride and self to them, but as Kaep said, they're also the symbols of the country as a whole that is supposed to offer liberty and justice for all, and that's not true.
The thing about athletes is that they're not political figures. So while they're used to having their every move dissected, this is a totally different arena. I think what Kaep did was dumb, but there needs to be more praise for the fact that he actually WANTS to do something good. For years we lambasted athletes as being self-absorbed millionaires. Now we have many more athletes taking public political (and other) stances that have nothing to do with sports. I hope that the excessive criticism doesn't dissuade other athletes from speaking out about the topics their passionate about.

So I think Kaep went about this totally the wrong way. It was a stupid way to try and make a statement and he has been rightly criticized. But whether it's this, or team's wearing BLM shirts, or whatever, I think we still need to applaud the fact that athletes in general are more comfortable using their fame to try and do some good in this country.
Kaep has the financial ability to do more than just sit down during the National Anthem.

I tried finding his charity work and the only thing I could find was his work for children with heart problems.
The reason for his interest in this charity? His adoptive parents lost two children to heart issues.

I want to see him take issue with all the minorities murdered in Chicago!
This month Chicago has the highest number of homicides in 20 years!
Chicago has more homicides than New York and LA combined.

He can sit, it will make zero difference.

Maybe he can donate to groups that help minorities?
Would be more beneficial to those he "cares" about than just sitting during the National Anthem.
First question: what charity do you donate to or organization do you volunteer with? This isn't attack, just a genuine question. Maybe he has the financial means to do more, but a lot of people could donate a little money or a little of their time to make a difference and don't.

Second: a lot of celebrities start donating towards and getting involved in charities that relate to a personal experience. And a lot of non celebrities. If he's involved with it good, his motive is irrelevant.
I give every week at my church.
Those funds are split to help local people with food and utilities, I know this as I am on the
committee that makes these decisions.
The rest goes to our regional synod and goes out to other areas, such as Louisiana to help
with those in need.
My spouse gives to the United Way, through each paycheck.
Also organize (through church) a program where we raise funds and purchase school supplies
that we offer and give to everyone who walks in the door. This is not need based.
I was a Rotarian, until I could no longer attend regular meetings because of work.
There are other things I do in the community on a volunteer basis.
Thanks for asking, and I not offended. :angel:

Now that Kaep obviously is so concerned with the injustices that take place in this country
I'm sure we will see him dedicating his time and resources toward them.

But I doubt it. Hope I am wrong.
Personally, I'm tired of the whole 'you aren't protesting Chicago homicides, therefore you can't have an opinion on racism.' It's a weak, nonsensical point.....and I am on the side that he shouldn't be sitting during the national anthem.

But the point of view that he is a self-absorbed millionaire doesn't make sense as well....he is a highly educated, intelligent guy (sunder lick score backs that up ) who knows that he would take a public beating for sitting. I think the protest is misguided, but it's not selfish......selfish actions aren't ones that are detrimental to your future employment and value.
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mongo Sep 1 2016, 02:01 AM Post #17
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Aug 31 2016, 09:55 PM
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Aug 31 2016, 09:41 PM
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Aug 31 2016, 07:39 PM
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Aug 31 2016, 06:51 PM
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Aug 31 2016, 10:26 AM
I think that, on its own, it's not an effective catalyst for change. So far, he's mainly just initiated conversation over the validity of "disrespecting" the flag and anthem as a form of protest, not elevated the conversation regarding systemic racism. As a person with a platform, it's to be seen where Kaepernick goes from here to make continued contributions towards that fight.

Regarding the act itself, I think it is a completely valid way to protest, and his logic is sound. The flag and anthem are symbols for the country as a whole. They're not the sole property of the military and the sacrifice of the men and women who've served. I understand that the military members have adopted those symbols as their own, and attached a lot of pride and self to them, but as Kaep said, they're also the symbols of the country as a whole that is supposed to offer liberty and justice for all, and that's not true.
The thing about athletes is that they're not political figures. So while they're used to having their every move dissected, this is a totally different arena. I think what Kaep did was dumb, but there needs to be more praise for the fact that he actually WANTS to do something good. For years we lambasted athletes as being self-absorbed millionaires. Now we have many more athletes taking public political (and other) stances that have nothing to do with sports. I hope that the excessive criticism doesn't dissuade other athletes from speaking out about the topics their passionate about.

So I think Kaep went about this totally the wrong way. It was a stupid way to try and make a statement and he has been rightly criticized. But whether it's this, or team's wearing BLM shirts, or whatever, I think we still need to applaud the fact that athletes in general are more comfortable using their fame to try and do some good in this country.
Kaep has the financial ability to do more than just sit down during the National Anthem.

I tried finding his charity work and the only thing I could find was his work for children with heart problems.
The reason for his interest in this charity? His adoptive parents lost two children to heart issues.

I want to see him take issue with all the minorities murdered in Chicago!
This month Chicago has the highest number of homicides in 20 years!
Chicago has more homicides than New York and LA combined.

He can sit, it will make zero difference.

Maybe he can donate to groups that help minorities?
Would be more beneficial to those he "cares" about than just sitting during the National Anthem.
First question: what charity do you donate to or organization do you volunteer with? This isn't attack, just a genuine question. Maybe he has the financial means to do more, but a lot of people could donate a little money or a little of their time to make a difference and don't.

Second: a lot of celebrities start donating towards and getting involved in charities that relate to a personal experience. And a lot of non celebrities. If he's involved with it good, his motive is irrelevant.
I give every week at my church.
Those funds are split to help local people with food and utilities, I know this as I am on the
committee that makes these decisions.
The rest goes to our regional synod and goes out to other areas, such as Louisiana to help
with those in need.
My spouse gives to the United Way, through each paycheck.
Also organize (through church) a program where we raise funds and purchase school supplies
that we offer and give to everyone who walks in the door. This is not need based.
I was a Rotarian, until I could no longer attend regular meetings because of work.
There are other things I do in the community on a volunteer basis.
Thanks for asking, and I not offended. :angel:

Now that Kaep obviously is so concerned with the injustices that take place in this country
I'm sure we will see him dedicating his time and resources toward them.

But I doubt it. Hope I am wrong.
Nice man good for you. More people need to be involved, no matter how little it is. Like I said it wasn't to come at you, simply my point was its easy to come at a celebrity and say "well clearly he could do more" but you can say that about anyone.
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rkl15 Sep 1 2016, 07:57 AM Post #18
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I don't disagree with either of you.

We don't know what he does behind the scenes, so hopefully he can make a difference.

The whole "you aren't protesting Chicago homicides, therefore you can't have an opinion on
racism' has zero to do with racism. And I don't see in my post where I said it was.
I did state that there is a large number of "minorities" being murdered in Chicago, but
that isn't a racism issue, that is the same race killing the same race.
And he said he was concerned with the "oppression" of minorities.
It is an issue that more people, don't care what the race is, should be concerned about.

His quote that "There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting
away with murder." just bothers me for some reason.

There are plenty of self-absorbed millionaires that are highly educated.
I believe we have a couple running for President.
One graduated from the Wharton School of the University of Penn.
The other attended Wellesley College then on to Yale.

I'm don't follow the Niners, so I'm not sure how solid his employment situation is
right now anyway.

Maybe he should be grateful that he was born in this country.
Odds are that if he was born anywhere else we would have no idea who he is.

Sorry, but sounds like we all agree, guess it's been slow, time for some Debates! :P
Edited by rkl15, Sep 1 2016, 07:59 AM.
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HoosierLars Sep 1 2016, 10:59 AM Post #19
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mongo Sep 1 2016, 11:14 AM Post #20
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Case closed
Good point. Solid contribution you brought to the table.
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sirbrianwilson Sep 1 2016, 11:32 AM Post #21
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I dislike Kaep as a player as much as probably anyone on here could, but I don't really see anything offensive about him simply sitting down...and i definitely don't disagree with his stance on institutional racism in America.

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Mr Gray Sep 1 2016, 01:12 PM Post #22
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Here's the way I look at it. Colin obviously has the right to protest anything he wants, and feel anyway he wants....that's not really up for debate here. What I have a problem with is his comments on America, and subsequent actions.

The flag and the anthem represent the entire United States of America. The majority of the nation isn't oppressive, and certainly the majority of American isn't out there targeting and killing black people. As we know, the majority of cops aren't even doing that.......so to act out in the fashion that Colin did is a sign of disrespect and/or an insult to the vast majority of Americans who are not racist or oppressive. His parents are part of America, his fans who support him are part of America, I, who puts many minorities into good paying jobs every day, am a part of America, and millions of police who put themselves in harm's way every day to protect minorities are part of America.....the same America that he is disrespecting with his actions and statements.

I believe it is foolish, disrespectful, irresponsible and unfair of him to lump all of the good in with the bad and make blanket statements about us being racist minority killing oppressors.
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Maker13 Sep 1 2016, 01:38 PM Post #23
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I think that, on its own, it's not an effective catalyst for change. So far, he's mainly just initiated conversation over the validity of "disrespecting" the flag and anthem as a form of protest, not elevated the conversation regarding systemic racism. As a person with a platform, it's to be seen where Kaepernick goes from here to make continued contributions towards that fight.

Regarding the act itself, I think it is a completely valid way to protest, and his logic is sound. The flag and anthem are symbols for the country as a whole. They're not the sole property of the military and the sacrifice of the men and women who've served. I understand that the military members have adopted those symbols as their own, and attached a lot of pride and self to them, but as Kaep said, they're also the symbols of the country as a whole that is supposed to offer liberty and justice for all, and that's not true.
This country does offer liberty and justice for all.
I disagree.

Non-white citizens are stopped more, seached more, arrested more, convicted more, sentenced for longer, subjected to more violent behavior by police officers, and killed more by police officers.

Unequal justice invalidates the concept of justice.
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Maker13 Sep 1 2016, 01:47 PM Post #24
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Here's the way I look at it. Colin obviously has the right to protest anything he wants, and feel anyway he wants....that's not really up for debate here. What I have a problem with is his comments on America, and subsequent actions.

The flag and the anthem represent the entire United States of America. The majority of the nation isn't oppressive, and certainly the majority of American isn't out there targeting and killing black people. As we know, the majority of cops aren't even doing that.......so to act out in the fashion that Colin did is a sign of disrespect and/or an insult to the vast majority of Americans who are not racist or oppressive. His parents are part of America, his fans who support him are part of America, I, who puts many minorities into good paying jobs every day, am a part of America, and millions of police who put themselves in harm's way every day to protect minorities are part of America.....the same America that he is disrespecting with his actions and statements.

I believe it is foolish, disrespectful, irresponsible and unfair of him to lump all of the good in with the bad and make blanket statements about us being racist minority killing oppressors.
But what if you flip your perspective? Instead of saying that the majority of America isn't racially oppressive, what if we say that the most minorities are being racially oppressed? The point isn't that everyone is racist and oppressive, it's that massive segments of the population aren't being given the same treatment as others.

Especially when you say that the majority of cops aren't racist or targeting black people...it doesn't matter if the majority is perfect. Because those 'bad apples' are still part of the government sanctioned, funded, armed, and protected force, they have the ability to disproportionately target, harass, impede, arrest, and kill. And that is a massive loss of freedom for those victims.
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Mr Gray Sep 1 2016, 01:57 PM Post #25
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I think that, on its own, it's not an effective catalyst for change. So far, he's mainly just initiated conversation over the validity of "disrespecting" the flag and anthem as a form of protest, not elevated the conversation regarding systemic racism. As a person with a platform, it's to be seen where Kaepernick goes from here to make continued contributions towards that fight.

Regarding the act itself, I think it is a completely valid way to protest, and his logic is sound. The flag and anthem are symbols for the country as a whole. They're not the sole property of the military and the sacrifice of the men and women who've served. I understand that the military members have adopted those symbols as their own, and attached a lot of pride and self to them, but as Kaep said, they're also the symbols of the country as a whole that is supposed to offer liberty and justice for all, and that's not true.
This country does offer liberty and justice for all.
I disagree.

Non-white citizens are stopped more, seached more, arrested more, convicted more, sentenced for longer, subjected to more violent behavior by police officers, and killed more by police officers.

Unequal justice invalidates the concept of justice.
:banghead:

Let me start with your comment that black are killed more by police officers:
50% of fatal police shootings are against whites
12% of all homicide deaths to whites and hispanics were from police shootings, while only 4% of black homicides were from police shootings
Black cops are 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene

Now, regarding the remaining claims..it isn't a matter of injustice....it's quite frankly because unfortunately blacks are committing more crimes, which would naturally make them more subject to being stopped, searched, arrested, convicted...etc

Blacks commit 62% of the robberies
Blacks commit 57% of the murders
Blacks commit 45% of the assaults


I am not denying racism exists within and without cops....but what I am saying is that the vast majority of the problem doesn't lie at the feet of the American system of justice....it sits squarely on the behavior of the black community, more specificlaly young black males.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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rkl15 Sep 1 2016, 02:03 PM Post #26
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I think that, on its own, it's not an effective catalyst for change. So far, he's mainly just initiated conversation over the validity of "disrespecting" the flag and anthem as a form of protest, not elevated the conversation regarding systemic racism. As a person with a platform, it's to be seen where Kaepernick goes from here to make continued contributions towards that fight.

Regarding the act itself, I think it is a completely valid way to protest, and his logic is sound. The flag and anthem are symbols for the country as a whole. They're not the sole property of the military and the sacrifice of the men and women who've served. I understand that the military members have adopted those symbols as their own, and attached a lot of pride and self to them, but as Kaep said, they're also the symbols of the country as a whole that is supposed to offer liberty and justice for all, and that's not true.
This country does offer liberty and justice for all.
I disagree.

Non-white citizens are stopped more, seached more, arrested more, convicted more, sentenced for longer, subjected to more violent behavior by police officers, and killed more by police officers.

Unequal justice invalidates the concept of justice.
Do you feel it would only be equal justice if the percentage of people were arrested was at the same rate as the population racial makeup?

In 2014 in America:
White = 62%
Black = 12%
Hispanic = 18%
Asian = 6%
American Indian/Alaska Native = 1%
Two or more races = 2%

Therefore 62% of all arrests should be white people?
Is that what we are looking for?

Or is America really as racist, bigoted and biased as some are claiming?

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Maker13 Sep 1 2016, 02:14 PM Post #27
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Sep 1 2016, 01:57 PM
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Aug 31 2016, 07:57 PM
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Aug 31 2016, 10:26 AM
I think that, on its own, it's not an effective catalyst for change. So far, he's mainly just initiated conversation over the validity of "disrespecting" the flag and anthem as a form of protest, not elevated the conversation regarding systemic racism. As a person with a platform, it's to be seen where Kaepernick goes from here to make continued contributions towards that fight.

Regarding the act itself, I think it is a completely valid way to protest, and his logic is sound. The flag and anthem are symbols for the country as a whole. They're not the sole property of the military and the sacrifice of the men and women who've served. I understand that the military members have adopted those symbols as their own, and attached a lot of pride and self to them, but as Kaep said, they're also the symbols of the country as a whole that is supposed to offer liberty and justice for all, and that's not true.
This country does offer liberty and justice for all.
I disagree.

Non-white citizens are stopped more, seached more, arrested more, convicted more, sentenced for longer, subjected to more violent behavior by police officers, and killed more by police officers.

Unequal justice invalidates the concept of justice.
:banghead:

Let me start with your comment that black are killed more by police officers:
50% of fatal police shootings are against whites
12% of all homicide deaths to whites and hispanics were from police shootings, while only 4% of black homicides were from police shootings
Black cops are 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene

Now, regarding the remaining claims..it isn't a matter of injustice....it's quite frankly because unfortunately blacks are committing more crimes, which would naturally make them more subject to being stopped, searched, arrested, convicted...etc

Blacks commit 62% of the robberies
Blacks commit 57% of the murders
Blacks commit 45% of the assaults


I am not denying racism exists within and without cops....but what I am saying is that the vast majority of the problem doesn't lie at the feet of the American system of justice....it sits squarely on the behavior of the black community, more specificlaly young black males.
Answering in reverse order:

rkl - No, definitely not. As Aaron noted, and I'm sure you're alluding to, crime rates are dramatically different depending on race. But when controlling for that (and ignoring the underlying reasons for it, generally economically based), criminal justice statistics are still skewed against minorities.

Aaron - I don't get the point of what you're trying say with your police homicide numbers. The point is that a black citizen is more likely to be killed by a police officer than than a white citizen under similar conditions. The ratio of homicide by police in comparison to other homicides isn't relevant at all. Read the analysis I linked for police killings.

Quote:
 

- The results provide evidence of a significant bias in the killing of unarmed black Americans relative to unarmed white Americans, in that the probability of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is about 3.49 times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police} on average.

- There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates), meaning that the racial bias observed in police shootings in this data set is not explainable as a response to local-level crime rates.

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stein1214 Sep 1 2016, 03:18 PM Post #28
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Not going to comment on if he has a right to do what he did, he's within his rights to do that if he wants.

My point is...I just don't think that this way of protesting is ever going to be an effective way to gain support for whatever cause you're trying to champion. He would have been better off just coming out and making a public statement like the NBA players did at the ESPY's, or like Michael Jordan did, or any of the other athletes and entertainers who have made similar public statements. If you come out and publicly denounce an institution like racism, the majority of Americans are going to be on your side and be willing to listen to what you have to say.

The flag and the national anthem are institutions that most Americans are extremely protective of. If you publicly denounce such an institution, which is what his actions suggest he is doing, most people are probably not going to back you up or listen to whatever message you're trying to get out.

In my opinion, all he's done is bring negative attention to himself instead of drawing support for the cause. He might even be doing more harm than good. You know there are people out there that would use this against him and say, "See...these BLM people are un-American. They're protesting our national anthem!" It's going to divide people instead of uniting them to fight against something that is wrong.

I guess overall what I'm saying is that he's right to want to use his fame and influence as a professional athlete to bring about awareness and promote equality and fair treatment for all Americans, but I think the way he went about it was incredibly misguided and not well thought out at all.

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brumdog44 Sep 1 2016, 09:10 PM Post #29
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I don't know....the fact that the way he is protesting has us talking about racial issues.....maybe it is accomplishing his goal.
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mongo Sep 1 2016, 09:40 PM Post #30
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I don't know....the fact that the way he is protesting has us talking about racial issues.....maybe it is accomplishing his goal.
I had the same thought the other day
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