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Bailout proposal voted down...
Tweet Topic Started: Sep 29 2008, 03:50 PM (178 Views)
brumdog44 Sep 29 2008, 03:50 PM Post #1
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...and both sides trying to blame the other.

In the end, I am sure that some version is going to pass...but right now the political posturing taking place is at an all time high. What is incredible is that there seems to be an incredible amount of split in both parties....I wonder what the breakdown is among candidates that are up for reelection and ones that aren't.
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md11flyer Sep 29 2008, 03:58 PM Post #2
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I think you are right on here Brum. I think for once the congress is listening to their constituents who overwhelmingly don't want this bill as written. With the house up for re-election in a little over a month, they are being really careful not to lose their jobs. 90 Dems voted against it which tells you they are worried about coming back to Washington.
Edited by md11flyer, Sep 29 2008, 03:58 PM.
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eelbor Sep 29 2008, 04:00 PM Post #3
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I wonder what the breakdown is among candidates that are up for reelection and ones that aren't.


uHHmm of those 435 in the house facing reelection 228 voted against the bill, 205 voted for it.

Zero house members are not up for re-election.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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brumdog44 Sep 29 2008, 04:04 PM Post #4
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eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 04:00 PM
uHHmm of those 435 in the house facing reelection 228 voted against the bill, 205 voted for it.

Zero house members are not up for re-election.
I was going to post that I wasn't sure of the house re-election cycle. Thanks for pointing that out.
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eelbor Sep 29 2008, 04:08 PM Post #5
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Sep 29 2008, 04:04 PM
eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 04:00 PM
uHHmm of those 435 in the house facing reelection 228 voted against the bill, 205 voted for it.

Zero house members are not up for re-election.
I was going to post that I wasn't sure of the house re-election cycle. Thanks for pointing that out.
I tried to do it with kid gloves on! :ermm:

Every 2 years for the House.

Every 6 years for the Senate. 33% up for election every even year, Never both from the same state.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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brumdog44 Sep 29 2008, 04:09 PM Post #6
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Sep 29 2008, 03:58 PM
I think you are right on here Brum. I think for once the congress is listening to their constituents who overwhelmingly don't want this bill as written. With the house up for re-election in a little over a month, they are being really careful not to lose their jobs. 90 Dems voted against it which tells you they are worried about coming back to Washington.
A few observations:

1. A majority of Americans are against the bailout.

2. A vast majority don't understand that consequences of bailout v. non-bailout (I'm trying like hell to figure out the consequences of both and I feel like I'm only about 10% there).

3. A large portion of of representations don't seem to grasp the issue and the consequences both ways.

4. We've got 435 (437 when you throw in Bush and Paulson) monkeys in a room hoping that one can type shakespeare. Instead of producing Romeo and Juliet, all they are doing is flinging their own shit.
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eelbor Sep 29 2008, 04:28 PM Post #7
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It depends whom you believe. Letting the banks fail is not all that bad. Airlines fail, and the profitable pieces of the businesses are purchased by other companies. The Shareholders that have invested in these companies areabout to take a big hit, and lose control of the companies...but it is better than "Wealth Redistrbution from the poor(er) to the wealthy." bailout plan. Why punish you and me, and not punish those that allowed the industry to engage in unacceptable levels of risk?
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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HoosierLars Sep 29 2008, 06:32 PM Post #8
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Do you guys remember getting at least one piece of junk every day to refinance, or take out a home equity home? Well, millions of Americans cashed in on those offers and went out and bought stuff. Main street did very well as a result. Now the banks holding those loans are seeing people behind on payments or defaulting completely. Where did the money go? For kitchen remodels, kids' college educations, and IU season tickets. The money has been spent, and the banks are left holding the bag.

Did some fat cats profit immensely? Yes, some did, including the banks and bank shareholders before the crash occurred. But most of the money was merely spent. One other factor that makes it even worse is many people took out equity loans to buy additional properties, and that just increased the bubble size even more. As the bubble grew, people took out bigger home equity loans, and bought more stuff/properties, making the bubble larger, repeat until the bubble bursts, and the banks fail.

Now we're fucked, and need to keep our financial system from collapsing. In the meantime, I might come over to trouble's house (after clearly announcing that I'm on his property) and we can grow crops, create a secure perimeter, and watch college bball reruns.
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eelbor Sep 29 2008, 07:15 PM Post #9
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We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry. The bailout encourages companies to risk they would otherwise shy away from because they will always count on getting bailed out by government. I hear the term slippery slope a lot on these boards, and this is a slippery slope if I have ever seen one. I would rather lose 10%, 20%, 30% or more of my investments and have the industry fix what is fundamentally wrong in the system than have to go through this cycle every 7-10 years with another bubble meltdown where we have to bail out the "industry-du-jour". It does not matter that the money has been spent and the bank is left holding the bag. They made unwise loans. The government made huge mistakes and bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, but that responsibility stops well short of socializing banking in this country in my humble opinion.

If the assets the financial institutions loaned money on was worth something yesterday, it is still worth something today. Sell those assets, or the lien on those assets for the fair market value, and dissolve through bankruptcy the offending financial institutions. The only way to correct this situation is to correct the bad government behind it, not by layering more government manipulation on top of it.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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HoosierLars Sep 29 2008, 07:55 PM Post #10
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eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 07:15 PM
We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry. The bailout encourages companies to risk they would otherwise shy away from because they will always count on getting bailed out by government. I hear the term slippery slope a lot on these boards, and this is a slippery slope if I have ever seen one. I would rather lose 10%, 20%, 30% or more of my investments and have the industry fix what is fundamentally wrong in the system than have to go through this cycle every 7-10 years with another bubble meltdown where we have to bail out the "industry-du-jour". It does not matter that the money has been spent and the bank is left holding the bag. They made unwise loans. The government made huge mistakes and bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, but that responsibility stops well short of socializing banking in this country in my humble opinion.

If the assets the financial institutions loaned money on was worth something yesterday, it is still worth something today. Sell those assets, or the lien on those assets for the fair market value, and dissolve through bankruptcy the offending financial institutions. The only way to correct this situation is to correct the bad government behind it, not by layering more government manipulation on top of it.
Where do you think the banks got the money they loaned? That's right, ordinary people like you and me who were being conservative and putting our cash in a "sure thing."
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Old_School Sep 29 2008, 07:58 PM Post #11
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HoosierLars
Sep 29 2008, 07:55 PM
eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 07:15 PM
We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry. The bailout encourages companies to risk they would otherwise shy away from because they will always count on getting bailed out by government. I hear the term slippery slope a lot on these boards, and this is a slippery slope if I have ever seen one. I would rather lose 10%, 20%, 30% or more of my investments and have the industry fix what is fundamentally wrong in the system than have to go through this cycle every 7-10 years with another bubble meltdown where we have to bail out the "industry-du-jour". It does not matter that the money has been spent and the bank is left holding the bag. They made unwise loans. The government made huge mistakes and bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, but that responsibility stops well short of socializing banking in this country in my humble opinion.

If the assets the financial institutions loaned money on was worth something yesterday, it is still worth something today. Sell those assets, or the lien on those assets for the fair market value, and dissolve through bankruptcy the offending financial institutions. The only way to correct this situation is to correct the bad government behind it, not by layering more government manipulation on top of it.
Where do you think the banks got the money they loaned? That's right, ordinary people like you and me who were being conservative and putting our cash in a "sure thing."
*chokes on a piece of broccoli*

Uhh...fractional reserve banking, anybody?
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eelbor Sep 29 2008, 08:19 PM Post #12
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Sep 29 2008, 07:55 PM
eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 07:15 PM
We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry. The bailout encourages companies to risk they would otherwise shy away from because they will always count on getting bailed out by government. I hear the term slippery slope a lot on these boards, and this is a slippery slope if I have ever seen one. I would rather lose 10%, 20%, 30% or more of my investments and have the industry fix what is fundamentally wrong in the system than have to go through this cycle every 7-10 years with another bubble meltdown where we have to bail out the "industry-du-jour". It does not matter that the money has been spent and the bank is left holding the bag. They made unwise loans. The government made huge mistakes and bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, but that responsibility stops well short of socializing banking in this country in my humble opinion.

If the assets the financial institutions loaned money on was worth something yesterday, it is still worth something today. Sell those assets, or the lien on those assets for the fair market value, and dissolve through bankruptcy the offending financial institutions. The only way to correct this situation is to correct the bad government behind it, not by layering more government manipulation on top of it.
Where do you think the banks got the money they loaned? That's right, ordinary people like you and me who were being conservative and putting our cash in a "sure thing."
Guess what? You are going to lose some money. If you had invested heavily in MCI back in the day, you would have lost money there also.

What other choice is there? Would you like to go down the path were every industry has to compete with the government as well as the other corporations across the state? Your bottom line may get bruised but it will recover.

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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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HoosierLars Sep 29 2008, 08:27 PM Post #13
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eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 08:19 PM
HoosierLars
Sep 29 2008, 07:55 PM
eelbor
Sep 29 2008, 07:15 PM
We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry. The bailout encourages companies to risk they would otherwise shy away from because they will always count on getting bailed out by government. I hear the term slippery slope a lot on these boards, and this is a slippery slope if I have ever seen one. I would rather lose 10%, 20%, 30% or more of my investments and have the industry fix what is fundamentally wrong in the system than have to go through this cycle every 7-10 years with another bubble meltdown where we have to bail out the "industry-du-jour". It does not matter that the money has been spent and the bank is left holding the bag. They made unwise loans. The government made huge mistakes and bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, but that responsibility stops well short of socializing banking in this country in my humble opinion.

If the assets the financial institutions loaned money on was worth something yesterday, it is still worth something today. Sell those assets, or the lien on those assets for the fair market value, and dissolve through bankruptcy the offending financial institutions. The only way to correct this situation is to correct the bad government behind it, not by layering more government manipulation on top of it.
Where do you think the banks got the money they loaned? That's right, ordinary people like you and me who were being conservative and putting our cash in a "sure thing."
Guess what? You are going to lose some money. If you had invested heavily in MCI back in the day, you would have lost money there also.

What other choice is there? Would you like to go down the path were every industry has to compete with the government as well as the other corporations across the state? Your bottom line may get bruised but it will recover.
Ok, Eel, so that means that some people will be cleaned out, while others are virtually unscathed. I guess it's not much different than being in the path of an Oklahoma tornado. I don't see how you can compare investing in stocks with putting cash in your corner savings and loan--huge difference.
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Mr Gray Sep 29 2008, 08:53 PM Post #14
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Sep 29 2008, 07:15 PM
We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry. The bailout encourages companies to risk they would otherwise shy away from because they will always count on getting bailed out by government. I hear the term slippery slope a lot on these boards, and this is a slippery slope if I have ever seen one. I would rather lose 10%, 20%, 30% or more of my investments and have the industry fix what is fundamentally wrong in the system than have to go through this cycle every 7-10 years with another bubble meltdown where we have to bail out the "industry-du-jour". It does not matter that the money has been spent and the bank is left holding the bag. They made unwise loans. The government made huge mistakes and bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, but that responsibility stops well short of socializing banking in this country in my humble opinion.

If the assets the financial institutions loaned money on was worth something yesterday, it is still worth something today. Sell those assets, or the lien on those assets for the fair market value, and dissolve through bankruptcy the offending financial institutions. The only way to correct this situation is to correct the bad government behind it, not by layering more government manipulation on top of it.
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We will all pay through lost investment money, 401ks etc, but we cannot allow the government to bail out this industry
Eel, that is putting principles before personal gain, and is a truly honorable and respectable position! I completely agree with you, and am willing to suffer through it to do "the right thing", as opposed to what would save my short term stock portfolio, garner additional votes in my next election or have my pockets stuffed by wall street insiders.

I have to say, I agree with 100% of what you said! How do you feel about Mike Pence's plan for creating insurance policies for these companies and suspending some of their taxes to help earn them additional capital to get through it?
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eelbor Sep 29 2008, 09:16 PM Post #15
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I can't say that I know anything about Mike Pence's plan. Where can I read more?
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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