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| Ludwig Von Mises is wrong; on one thing | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 16 2008, 01:19 PM (208 Views) | |
| Mr Gray | Oct 16 2008, 01:19 PM Post #1 |
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OK OldSchool, I knew that would get your attention. I have been reading Von Mises as you have suggested, and I find the perspective very interesting and well thought out. I agree with almost everything, except the assessment of [url=www.fairtax.org]The FairTax[/URL], which I have heard you make a similar complaint. Ludwig's problem with the fairtax is that it doesn't address reducing government back to it's pre-industrial revolution size, and that the problem is government spending. No one agrees more than me and the fairtax authors on that point, but that is not the purpose of thefairtax. The purpose of thefairtax is tax reform, not government spending reform, which or course should also be tackled, but the two should remain seperate issues. That being said, however, thefairtax does provide taxation trasparency that could and ultimately should lead to a high level of public scrutiny on government spending. This side affect of thefairtax will be very helpful in the fight to reduce government, and I am disappointed that you and Ludwig wouldn't support it. Even if we were to reduce government spending, that wouldn't make our current form of progressive income based taxation full of special interest socialistic payouts (hidden as tax cuts) any better than it is now...it would just be the same problem with potentially less zeros at the end of it. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Old_School | Oct 16 2008, 01:25 PM Post #2 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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Haha. Got my attention is an understatement. I can't reply to this now though because I have a midterm in 7 minutes, but Ill try to tackle it later. You do realize Mises has been dead for over 30 years now though, right? Could you be talking about scholars with the Mises Institute instead? |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| Mr Gray | Oct 16 2008, 01:29 PM Post #3 |
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yeah, I meant it came from the institute....Laurence Vance has been the main opponent, and he seems to have a prominent standing within the organization. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Cattman96 | Oct 17 2008, 12:03 PM Post #4 |
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7. Consumer Sovereignty: In the marketplace consumers are king. Their demands drive the shape of the market and determine how resources are used. Intervention in the marketplace stifles this process. 8. Political Individualism: Political freedom is impossible without economic freedom. I have just started reading about this and these two jumped off the page. I hope to read up more in the coming days. Seems to be no time. Old_School I have been hard core repub but have been opening my eyes since I joined this site. Still conservative but opoen to new ideas. |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Old_School | Oct 17 2008, 01:33 PM Post #5 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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:cheers: I'll be back next week (I'll be in Bloomington partying my ass off this weekend)! |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| Mr Gray | Oct 20 2008, 06:55 AM Post #6 |
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bump back to OldSchool, in case you forgot |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Old_School | Oct 21 2008, 03:33 PM Post #7 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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I didn't forget. I'll try to tackle this later tonight or tomorrow. Glad to see you've liked what you've seen for the most part though! |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| Old_School | Oct 21 2008, 03:34 PM Post #8 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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Keep reading man! Feel free to ask any questions you may have. :cheers: |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| Cattman96 | Oct 21 2008, 04:43 PM Post #9 |
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I gotta tell ya man this is fucking with me. I now am questioning my party affiliation for the last 18 years. It seems so simplistic yet I have alot of questions for you later. I am going to wrap my head around this for another week than I am going to pick your brain. |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Old_School | Oct 21 2008, 04:47 PM Post #10 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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:D I can't wait man! Glad to see you're taking all this in with an open mind!! :cheers: |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| Cattman96 | Oct 22 2008, 04:31 PM Post #11 |
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"The core conviction is what matters: peaceful exchange makes everyone better off; private property is the first principle of liberty; intervention destroys wealth; society and economy need no central management to achieve orderliness." Still not educated on the subject enough to ask questions but I wish someone had turned me on to this years ago. I really am liking what I am reading. |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Cattman96 | Oct 24 2008, 09:04 AM Post #12 |
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Okay Old-School I am asking for some clarifications. This will probably sound remedial since I am looking at this from a whole new prospective. This is what I have learned after reading some V.M. and please correct me if I am wrong on any of this.. The government has stifled the economy by trying to reshape how the marketplace works. ie. The Fed reserve and it's control of interest rates etc... It seems a free market economy w/o gov't intervention could control interest through competition amongst banks. So the Fed Reserve as our central banking system is a huge failure. Also It seems ln the marketplace we are politically beholden to the gov't because right now we have to vote for the candidate that is going to help our business the most when in reality if they stayed the hell out than we coulds vote for the candidate best suited to our social views as well. Sounds 101 maybe and I could be wrong, since your the resident expert on Van Mises tell me if I am interpreting this correctly. Just taking it in parts. |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Mr Gray | Oct 24 2008, 09:23 AM Post #13 |
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Catt, Old School is definitely the expert on Von Mises specifics, but you have just nailed the true concept of the free market and the benefits of laissez-faire ecomics. This is why you will not see Old School voting for either of the major candidates, as each has accepted the false-reality that the Government's job is to dictate market direction, when in reality all they ever do is AT BEST delay the inevitable, and ultimately make that inevitable conclusion even worse. I have chosen to vote for McCain anyway because I feel so strongly against Obama's healthcare policies, and am just hoping that something will happen in this generation that shows the country that principles such as those of Von Misis and Old School are truly the direction that we need to go. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Old_School | Oct 24 2008, 01:29 PM Post #14 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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Hey man, before I get started, I just wanna say I think it's great that you're taking all this in with an open heart and open mind! Thanks for taking the time to look into this! Don't worry about sounding remedial man, ask as many questions as you want no matter how seemingly stupid or redundant they may be. It takes time to get a firm grip on this school of thought. The government absolutely stifles the economy through intervention. One of Mises' most meaningful contributions (and trust me, he has countless meaningful contributions) to economics is his theory on economic interventionism. Basically, to sum it up in as few words as possible, intervention begets intervention. That is, one government intervention into the marketplace, be it by price control, minimum wage, protectionist tariffs, subsidies, or the most over-arching, manipulation of the monetary supply and artificial interest rates, whatever, will inevitably lead to unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem the government sought to correct. Once the precedent of intervention has been set, brought about through various PR persuasion schemes by both government officials and industries/specific companies looking for favors, it is hard to logically argue against further intervention. Slippery slope and such and so forth. Anyway, upon seeing the calamity said intervention caused, the next logical step is to intervene again. But, in keeping true to its nature, this intervention will also have unintended consequences that need to be corrected as well. As you can see, it begins to snowball. There are two options governments have. They can either continue intervening in the market (the option all Western governments have chosen) or they can realize the err of their ways and work to free up the markets once again. If they choose option A, which 'they' have all done, de facto socialism is the inevitable consequence. Socialism not in the Marxist/Engels/Leninist sense, but more in the Nazi sense, where there is the guise of capitalism, but the inner workings of the economy are all dictated by the state through way of coercion, mandates, regulations, etc. More on the failure of economic intervention and more... ...and even more... The Federal Reserve hurts the economy in two ways. One, it creates artificially low interest rates, i.e. interest rates that do not reflect current market conditions. This leads to malinvestment and the misallocation of resources into often times otherwise unprofitable industries or concepts. Two, it gives a shadowy system of banks outside the oversight of Congress to create money 'out of thin air' seemingly at will, i.e. inflation. The 'inflation tax' is a hidden tax that hurts the lower and middle class the most. The freshly created money goes first to government and well-connected industries. They get the money before prices have had the time to adjust, so not only do they get more money, they get it when the prices haven't reached an equilibrium yet. By the time it trickles down to the common man, there is less of it and the prices have already adjusted upward. This is a definite transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. I've ranted on these topics many times in the past, just look for some of my prior posts on the topic. Here's a good back and forth between Lars and me I'll leave you with some very interesting Austrian theories/contributions to check out. The Broken Window Fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window http://mises.org/story/3044 http://mises.org/story/2868 Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt (book) http://www.fee.org/library/books/economics.asp The current economic turmoil we're in http://mises.org/story/3128 |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| Cattman96 | Oct 24 2008, 02:28 PM Post #15 |
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Thanks man. I think I am on the right track. You gave me alot of new material to digest. I will check it out and then get back with you. Thanks again for your time. I think there are alot of lost "republicans" in search of a new vision. I am one. |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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