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| Aaron 2; Fairtax | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 5 2008, 09:08 AM (183 Views) | |
| Cattman96 | Nov 5 2008, 09:08 AM Post #1 |
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I started reading the book you recommended on the Fairtax. I got to the page that quoted Franklin. "When the people realize they can vote themselves money that will be the end of the Republic" . Prophetic?? On a side note what does it tak to piss off someone from PENN. You are a bunch racist, rednecks that cling to there bibles and guns. Murtha-Obama. Do you have to tsay the Steelers and Eagles Suck!!! that might really iritate them. haha. I am giving Obama a clean slate to start out with as I hope everyone will. This Our country and he is our President... Edited by Cattman96, Nov 5 2008, 09:35 AM.
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 5 2008, 09:38 AM Post #2 |
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cattman, I respect your good attitude, and am very glad to hear that you are reading the FairTax book. Let me give you one piece of advice regarding the Obama Presidency. He and his party will have control of the Presidency, the Congress, the Senate, the Courts, the IRS, and the Military. Read that to yourself a few times and draw your own conclusions. I will be hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Cattman96 | Nov 5 2008, 09:57 AM Post #3 |
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I know and that scares the HELL out of me as well. I will be hoping and preparing as well. But I am giving him a fair shake to start out with. |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| boilergrad01 | Nov 6 2008, 06:58 PM Post #4 |
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Working on the last 5
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AaronK, Does the Fair tax address spending because I believe no tax system is effective until we control spending. |
| Nothing beats an Astronaut | |
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| Old_School | Nov 6 2008, 07:00 PM Post #5 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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No, it's a revenue neutral solution, meaning the government will still take in just as much revenue as under our current system. This is my biggest beef with it. |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| boilergrad01 | Nov 6 2008, 07:09 PM Post #6 |
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Working on the last 5
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I agree we must set spending controls and have priorities on what is financially feasible. That needs to adjust with the world political climate. Like it or not Old School we are a world player. We might have overreached finacially and militarily with our current structure |
| Nothing beats an Astronaut | |
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| brumdog44 | Nov 6 2008, 08:51 PM Post #7 |
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The guy picked last in gym class
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To bring in the same tax revenue, you basically up the taxes paid by the lower middle to upper middle tax brackets while the top 5% would see dramatic drops in taxes. |
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| Cattman96 | Nov 7 2008, 03:02 PM Post #8 |
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Aaron, as I turned on the radio this morning I cought the tail end of the news where it said something about your boy Mike Pence getting an appointment of some sort. Can you fill me in on this one? |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 7 2008, 03:27 PM Post #9 |
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yep, he announced his bid for House Republican Conference Chairman. http://mikepence.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=105442 |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 7 2008, 03:33 PM Post #10 |
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the FairTax indirectly addresses federal spending, however it's goal is TAX REFORM, which is exactly what it would accomplish. Your & OldSchools theory on this is severely flawed (with all due respect)....that would be like saying that you wouldn't endorse any solution to our immigration problems unless it also reduced federal spending. The 2 are seperate issues, and should be addressed as such. We have a big big problem in our current tax code, and why anyone would want to avoid that problem because of their disdane for another issue is beyond me. The Fairtax takes care of so many issues all at once it is truly remarkable. I will explain how it indirectly addresses spending a little bit later...I have my book at home and I want to make sure I quote the statistics and sources accurately. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 7 2008, 03:42 PM Post #11 |
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finally he who is correct about dinosaurs figures out how to draw it out of me.....I wondered how long it would be before realized that the insults, while funny...only make me want to keep it going. But you cite factual inaccuracies about theFairTax....now that I cannot sit back and shutup about until Dec. 5th. :) This is a common misconception amongst those that don't take the time to research [url=www.thefairtax.ort]TheFairTax[/URL] and assume it is just like the "flat tax" proposals of the past, such as the ones made famouse by Steve Forbes in the 90's. I will go into detail here, but given that he who is correct about dinosaurs is also the 1st one to point out the regressive nature of our current Payroll Tax structure, I'm surprised that some of this isn't obvious and popular in your eyes. The truth: The FairTax actually eliminates and reimburses all federal taxes for those below the poverty line. This is accomplished through the universal prebate and by eliminating the highly regressive FICA payroll tax. Today, low and moderate income Americans pay far more in FICA taxes than income taxes. Those spending at twice the poverty level pay a FairTax of only 11.5 percent -- a rate much lower than the income and payroll tax burden they bear today. Meanwhile, the wealthy pay the 23 percent retail sales tax on their retail purchases. Under the federal income tax, slow economic growth and recessions have a disproportionately adverse impact on lower-income families. Breadwinners in these families are more likely to lose their jobs, are less likely to have the resources to weather bad economic times, and are more in need of the initial employment opportunities that a dynamic, growing economy provides. Retaining the present tax system makes economic progress needlessly slow and frustrates attempts at upward mobility through hard work and savings, thus harming low-income taxpayers the most. In contrast, the FairTax dramatically improves economic growth and wage rates for all, but especially for lower-income families and individuals. In addition to receiving the monthly FairTax prebate, these taxpayers are freed from regressive payroll taxes, the federal income tax, and the compliance burdens associated with each. They pay no more business taxes hidden in the price of goods and services, and used goods are tax free. How can the FairTax generate lower net tax rates for everyone and still pay for the same real government expenditures? The answer is two-fold. Firstly, the tax base is dramatically widened by including consumer spending from the underground economy (estimated at $1.5 trillion annually), and by including illegal immigrants, those who escape their fair share today through loopholes and gimmicks. In addition, 40 million foreign tourists a year will become American taxpayers as consumers here. Secondly, not everyone's average net tax burden falls. For households whose major economic resource is accumulated wealth, the FairTax will deliver a net tax hike compared to the current system. Consider, for example, your typical billionaire, of which America now has more than 400. These fortunate few are invested primarily in equities on which they pay taxes at a 15 percent rate, whether their income comes in the form of capital gains or dividends. In addition to having the income from their wealth taxed at a low rate, the principal of their wealth is completely untaxed either directly or indirectly. Assuming they and their heirs spend only the income earned on the wealth each year, the tax rate today is 15 percent. In contrast, under the FairTax, the effective tax rate is 23 percent. Hence, the very wealthy will pay more taxes when the FairTax is enacted. In a nutshell, those who spend more will pay more but low, moderate and middle income taxpayers will benefit from the greatest gains in reduced tax liabilities. I have even more detail than this in my books at home if this doesn't clear it up! |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Old_School | Nov 7 2008, 03:50 PM Post #12 |
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Defender of Mars, Kicker of Ass
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Okay Barack Obama. :P |
The poster formerly known as mybracketownsyou.
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| brumdog44 | Nov 7 2008, 05:06 PM Post #13 |
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The guy picked last in gym class
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So, in essense, what you are saying is that the fair tax should have been employed since the age of dinosaurs, long before man roamed the Earth. And the beauty is that the bet was not a one time thing...it was on any post referencing the other party for a period of thirty days. |
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| Cattman96 | Nov 11 2008, 09:57 AM Post #14 |
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A couple questions for you Aaron or anyone else that is up on the Fairtax proposal. One of the things that I dont agree with is the prebate. If the Fairtax doesn't address spending (which I don't think it should) than there will still be a welfare system for those that are poor. Why pay an extra 3% in taxes for a prebate if only a few need it and they are already getting welfare? Why not just leave the embedded tax at 20%? Next question. I believe the authors of the Fairtax are recommending that even though the employee is no longer paying into Social Security etc. that they still accept the same take home pay. If the business is saving they will rely on that savings to be passed on to the consumer through lower prices. Than the 23% will offset that savings and the taxpayer will be paying the same in the long run as they are now. Which is fine. The big reason for the fairtax will be to attract global business to the U.S. as well as keep our own companies from moving away. Long winded I know. Now the question. What if prices do not lower enough to offset the added inbedded tax? |
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The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 11 2008, 11:35 AM Post #15 |
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This is a good point, and I think it is addressed in 2 ways. 1) The concept of "only a few need it" is not a guiding principle of this proposal. It aims at fairness, therefore everyone is eligable for the prebate regardless of your economic status. 2) The reasoning for the prebate is to ensure that every American is not being taxed on their essentials of living (food clothing...etc) up to the point of the poverty line. This is how the prebate is calculated. The authors realize that in order for this tax plan to become viable in today's society, it must have a degree of "progressive taxation" at the lower income levels. If you are earning at or near the poverty line, you essentially pay no taxes with the prebate calculated in. If we were to remove the prebate and lower the tax to 20%, those Americans at the poverty line would also be paying the 20%, which would be perceived as "unfair to the poor", thus not a viable proposal. Now the conservative economics in me agrees with you 100%, however in the political world, you must also develop a proposal that has addresses the concerns of the right & the left, while still having an overall positive affect on the nation, which is what theFairTax achieves. Please let me know if I have satisfied your question here? If not, I will go into further detail if you want.
All studies have shown that we are currently paying about 25% in hidden taxes for all products purchased in the US do to the various levels of taxation from engineering to manufacturing to marketing to retail & of course accounting. When these obstacles are removed, a company will have 2 choices. a) they can continue on their same prospective corporate net profit margin (% of profit to sales) which would lower the price of their products as their costs are lowered (example: If I strive to make 10% NP and my costs are $100, I would sell my product for $111.11 (100/.9). If my costs are lowered by 25% to $75, I would then sell my product for $83.33 (75/.9), which is a 25% decrease in selling price, while I still maintain my NP of 10%. ) b) they can try to take "windfall profits" on their new lower costs by maintaining their current selling price. This obviously opens the door to competition lowering their price and taking their marketshare. (example: My costs decrease to $75, but I maintain my selling price of $111.11, giving me an NP of 32.5%. My competitor realizes that he can maintain his traditional NP of 10%, and blow me out of the market by lowering his selling price to $83.33.) Either way, the consumer ends up receiving the savings, as long as the government stays out and allows competition to take place. Now, I don't actually believe that prices will drop by 23% to offset the entirety of the fairtax, however it doesn't matter, because you must remember, the consumer now has 25% additional "buying power" (because they aren't paying income tax) to purchase goods at approximately the same price or slightly higher, and they're not paying any tax on their "essentials" to begin with because of the prebate. This leaves the consume with much more money for additional spending (increasing the economy) or additional savings (increasing available capital --> creating more corporate investment --> increasing the economy). I hope this helps.....let me know if it is still cloudy, or if you want further explanation. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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