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| deflation; some questions | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:11 AM (556 Views) | |
| brumdog44 | Nov 13 2008, 09:46 PM Post #46 |
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The guy picked last in gym class
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aaron, is a vacant lot worth as much as a lot with a house? If an arsonist burns an uninsured house down, you've turned a house into a vacant lot. What you have to remember is that the number of houses in the world is NOT a fixed amount. |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 13 2008, 11:51 PM Post #47 |
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Coach
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Eel...you're smarter than that. Communism 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state. 2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party. Socialism 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. 2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory. 3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles. WHAT THE FUCK DOES MY ECONOMIC THEORY HAVE TO DO WITH EITHER OF THESE? I have in no way advocated governmental redistribution of wealth, common property, governmental ownership of any industry, or any sort of totalitarian state. Your statement makes absolutely no sense to me. I am merely describing the actual fundamentals of all monetary systems, and there are multiple economists throughout history that state the same or similar theories...none would be labeled a communist or socialist. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 13 2008, 11:58 PM Post #48 |
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Coach
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Because in order for someone to purchase a Pentium processor, something else has to be given up, traded, sold, or additional money needs to be printed, lowering the value of all existing money. Also, everytime a pentium processor is sold, that is a AMD processor not being sold, therefore it is somewhat offset by that competing product being unsold. If you want to argue that wealth equals quality of life, I can see that argument. Certainly many would agree that technological & societal advancements have increased the general quality of life (although some would argue against, so it is merely a matter of personal opinion), therefore wealth has been "created", I can live with that. My argument here is the faulty logic that "inflation" is good because it is a sign of a growing economy. Money doesn't increase or decrease....it merely changes hands. Economic fundamentals ultimately drill down to natural resources, of which there is a finite amount of. Ultimately we are all trading for natural resources, mostly indirectly but fundamentally the same. Natural resources are finite, therefore wealth is finite. I wish I could articulate this a little better because this is frustrating for me. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| eelbor | Nov 14 2008, 12:02 AM Post #49 |
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Zen Master
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Look at the world Aaron, and you see rich people multiplying their wealth. They can’t have added to the sum total of wealth, because according to you there is only so much wealth in the world. Wealth can’t be added to. Therefore these rich people must have gotten their wealth from others. The only question is: from whom? Karl Marx supplied the first great answer to this question, sound familar?? Obviously the rich industrialists and captains of industry are taking wealth from the workers who are just as inevitably getting poorer. Your flawed model leads to socialism and the communist manifesto. You are confusing money with wealth. |
![]() "Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 12:11 AM Post #50 |
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Coach
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the rich aren't getting richer when you factor in inflation. Their wealth is being spread around, mostly through the free market, and unfortunately it is also being spread around via socialistic governmental policies. Wealth does get passed down, often split amongst heirs and therefore diminished per individual, but the total stays the same. the poor don't have to get poorer. They can also take advantage of the free market to capture their piece of the pie. The standard for quality of life will increase, but the pie will not. If someone gets "rich" ultimately that wealth does come at the expense of others, sometimes a lot of it from a few, or a little of it from many, but that is absolutely the nature of the beast. You need to break it down into a small group. Imagine you are one of only 10 people alive and the world is a 10 acre farm. Tell me how wealth is "created" or your economy is increased. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 12:13 AM Post #51 |
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Coach
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he who is correct about dinosaurs. wouldn't you agree that in our scenario the value of every other existing house increases slightly when one if burned down? It is so miniscule in our current society that your example is virtually undetectable. But imagine if there were only 10 houses currently and 1 of them burnt down. What happens to the value of the other 9? |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 12:17 AM Post #52 |
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Coach
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I am not confused at all. Wealth, in terms of this thread is equal to money. Remember, this thread was about the problems/advantages of inflation vs. deflation. I stated that inflation isn't "good" and doesn't mean that the economy is growing just because we have the perception of more money. The best way I have heard it described (but I will jack this up a bit) is to think about how many hours you have to work to purchase some commodity. As our economy supposedly grows and we print money to accomodate it, all we really do is make it so that we have to work the same amount to purchase the same amount. Do you call that a growth in wealth? |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| eelbor | Nov 14 2008, 12:21 AM Post #53 |
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Zen Master
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But for all these decreasing commodities, there is more usable quantities of them on the planet than there has ever been. Even thpugh the 'supply' is shrinking. We really have little need for metals anymore, we can make plastics, ceramics, or a list chemicals that did not exist 150 years ago. The relative abundace of minerals is only a single facet of world wealth. |
![]() "Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder. | |
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| eelbor | Nov 14 2008, 12:26 AM Post #54 |
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Zen Master
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Bump. Can you answer me this Aaron? (in case you missed it before). |
![]() "Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 12:38 AM Post #55 |
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Coach
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I don't know how to answer that question. My best answer is that there would be no more wealth, because wealth is a matter of buying power, and with no one to buy anything, nothing has any buying power value to it. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 12:39 AM Post #56 |
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Coach
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yes, but wouldn't you agree that for every increase in value of ceramics, plastics...etc, there is an equal decrease in value of metals? |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 12:40 AM Post #57 |
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Coach
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what a bunch of nerds we are.....man, if you had asked me 10 years ago if I would be having a hypothetical economic theory discussion on the internet at Midnight on a Thursday, I probably would have spit my beer in your face and went back to looking for the drunkest girl at the bar....I guess things change. |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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| HoosierLars | Nov 14 2008, 02:07 AM Post #58 |
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3 in a row
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Karl Marx (or modern day liberals) couldn't have put it much better.
The group cuts down trees to build houses. Then they mine copper to create pipe and indoor plumbing. Natural gas is used for heat and to power some farm machinery they invent to reduce the amount of time spent farming. They have more free time, so they build an electric generator, TV, and satellite dish to pick up basketball games. Wealth is clearly created, any way you want to measure it. The US population has doubled in the last 50 years, and tripled in the last 100 years, yet the average person has many more conveniences and a higher standard of living. This completely blows up your contention that wealth hasn't been created. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States |
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| eelbor | Nov 14 2008, 09:44 AM Post #59 |
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Zen Master
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Ok, finally a breakthrough. Yes, there would be no wealth....because wealth is a man-made thing. |
![]() "Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder. | |
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| Mr Gray | Nov 14 2008, 10:54 AM Post #60 |
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Coach
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read my posts...I stated clearly that I would agree that quality of life/standard of living has increased with societal advancements. This thread, and the beginning of my rants, involved inflation vs. deflation ie monetary policy. There is a finite amount of money or spending power, therefore deflation is a natural and necessary side affect of inflation. There is not a finite amount of wealth in terms of quality of life and standard of living because they are a product of natural resources, many of which are infinitely renewable. There is, however, a finite amount of "money" regardless of what what money is (gold, dollars, grain, coonskin caps....etc). Everytime a new one is "created" the value of the remaining ones decrease proportionately. That's all I'm saying...you don't need to get all Marxist on me ;) |
![]() The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism. | |
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