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some straight talk; about racism
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 14 2008, 06:03 AM (1,083 Views)
Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 01:37 PM Post #76
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hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 10:41 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
I think we have had this conversation every time we get into the discussion about blacks voting for Obama. I am not going to sit here and have the same debate over and over again, when neither of us are going to change our stance. We can just agree to disagree.
Before I quit this thread though let me just say this. The groups of people I listed earlier in the thread; the representatives, the senators, the ceo's etc. - the demographics of those groups are not reperesentative of America as a whole. Do you think that is a coincidence? If so, I think you are as naive as you often like to claim others are.
way to duck the question. Nobody on here has yet to show any justification for the claim of unequal opportunity. I guess there are a few valid examples though.


  • I am not able to apply for black or native-american scolarships.

  • I don't have any reverends who come to my defense because a minority commits a crime against me.

  • I have nobody petitioning the government to give me money because of something that was done to my great great great great grandparents 150 years ago

  • I don't have a magazine devoted to my skin color (that I know of), nor do I have a TV station.

  • I have no national organization fighting for the advancement of people who look like me, which is partially funded by taxpayers.

  • I am not allowed to join the Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity.


Yes, somehow I have been able to squeek out a living.....what a tragedy
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 01:41 PM Post #77
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Nov 19 2008, 11:14 AM
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hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 01:42 PM Post #78
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Nov 19 2008, 01:29 PM
I understand what you are saying Dreach,

I started out at IUPUI and know of three students one at Butler and two at IUPUI that went to college purely on ROTC scholarships and student loans. They could not have went to college any other way but really wanted to better themselves. Oppurtunity is there if someone really wants it. MY Older sister went to school on three scolarships and was a RA to pay for school. Iti s possible if ones really wants it.
nah BG...that would require determination and ambition, which according to dreach is apparently sucked out of you based on your color and where you live
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Nov 19 2008, 01:43 PM Post #79
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hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Right, because bad schools have nothing to do with funding or quality teachers. It's all on the students. Do you even listen to yourself?
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Cattman96 Nov 19 2008, 01:48 PM Post #80
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Nov 19 2008, 01:37 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 10:41 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
I think we have had this conversation every time we get into the discussion about blacks voting for Obama. I am not going to sit here and have the same debate over and over again, when neither of us are going to change our stance. We can just agree to disagree.
Before I quit this thread though let me just say this. The groups of people I listed earlier in the thread; the representatives, the senators, the ceo's etc. - the demographics of those groups are not reperesentative of America as a whole. Do you think that is a coincidence? If so, I think you are as naive as you often like to claim others are.
way to duck the question. Nobody on here has yet to show any justification for the claim of unequal opportunity. I guess there are a few valid examples though.


  • I am not able to apply for black or native-american scolarships.

  • I don't have any reverends who come to my defense because a minority commits a crime against me.

  • I have nobody petitioning the government to give me money because of something that was done to my great great great great grandparents 150 years ago

  • I don't have a magazine devoted to my skin color (that I know of), nor do I have a TV station.

  • I have no national organization fighting for the advancement of people who look like me, which is partially funded by taxpayers.

  • I am not allowed to join the Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity.


Yes, somehow I have been able to squeek out a living.....what a tragedy
So you're not a Tri Lam??? :D
The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
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boilergrad01 Nov 19 2008, 01:52 PM Post #81
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I understand what you are saying Dreach,

I started out at IUPUI and know of three students one at Butler and two at IUPUI that went to college purely on ROTC scholarships and student loans. They could not have went to college any other way but really wanted to better themselves. Oppurtunity is there if someone really wants it. MY Older sister went to school on three scolarships and was a RA to pay for school. Iti s possible if ones really wants it.
nah BG...that would require determination and ambition, which according to dreach is apparently sucked out of you based on your color and where you live
AaronK,

neither of my parents fraduated from college. They will not leave any money behind. My younger sister and I actually help them out now. They did teach us to be tenacious and most of the debt they have was from always putting us first. It is hard to imagine how much they spent on our swimming growing up and i never didn't play football because of money it always was there. So was the money for football camp. We never went to the movies as kids or bowling but instead they worked hard to pay for our sports. My dad always found away to take me to a few games a year or use tickets he got from vendors and take me.

They will leave us something Pride,determination, understanding sacfrice and oppurtunity. The Governemnt couldn't offer us that only our parents. My family is very important to me because they helped make me whom I am.

The Government never could have given that.
Nothing beats an Astronaut
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Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 02:08 PM Post #82
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Nov 19 2008, 01:43 PM
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Nov 19 2008, 01:41 PM
dreachon
Nov 19 2008, 11:14 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Right, because bad schools have nothing to do with funding or quality teachers. It's all on the students. Do you even listen to yourself?
ok, I'll concede that there are good schools and bad schools based on funding & teachers....etc. Please tell me how that is based on race. Are black people automatically assigned to the bad schools because of their color?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Nov 19 2008, 02:14 PM Post #83
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Nov 19 2008, 01:41 PM
dreachon
Nov 19 2008, 11:14 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Right, because bad schools have nothing to do with funding or quality teachers. It's all on the students. Do you even listen to yourself?
ok, I'll concede that there are good schools and bad schools based on funding & teachers....etc. Please tell me how that is based on race. Are black people automatically assigned to the bad schools because of their color?
I thought I already mentioned that schools in poor areas are usually worse. Poor areas have predominantly black populations. So the kid (black or white) who attends these schools is continously receiving a poor education. And I think most people agree that the biggest opportunity a person can get is a quality education.
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boilergrad01 Nov 19 2008, 02:24 PM Post #84
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Then go with the McCain idea of the voucher program so the kids can get into a school with a better educational program. It all starts at home with drive and understanding the importance of an education. Keeping inner city kids in sub standard schools with little to no parental involvement is not helping them. Allowing them to select another school is better. Pres elect Obama is sending his daughters to a private school. I guess you can buy your out of the public schools but deny the voucher to others is not granting oppurtunity. Nor encouraging the bad schools to become better at educating
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Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 02:35 PM Post #85
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Nov 19 2008, 01:41 PM
dreachon
Nov 19 2008, 11:14 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Right, because bad schools have nothing to do with funding or quality teachers. It's all on the students. Do you even listen to yourself?
ok, I'll concede that there are good schools and bad schools based on funding & teachers....etc. Please tell me how that is based on race. Are black people automatically assigned to the bad schools because of their color?
I thought I already mentioned that schools in poor areas are usually worse. Poor areas have predominantly black populations. So the kid (black or white) who attends these schools is continously receiving a poor education. And I think most people agree that the biggest opportunity a person can get is a quality education.
you're taking a 2nd degree association and trying to make a direct connection, which is fuzzy logic by any standard. Quality of education isn't tied to race, although it is tied to demographics in some cases. This is like saying that I wasn't born with an opportunity play in the NBA because the majority of NBA players are black, and I am white. I have the same opportunity, but if I'm not good enough, tall enough, fast enough, or don't work hard enough, I don't make it. Nobody is guaranteed equality of results....we are only guaranteed that the nation will not create inequality of opportunites based on race. You are very misguided in this argument
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Cattman96 Nov 19 2008, 02:40 PM Post #86
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You are going to have to somehow educate the adults in these areas before you can help educate the kids. They are in a cycle of drugs, gang banging no father around and sometimes no mother. Why try to better yourself when you look around and it appears there is no hope. The gov't needs to quit enabling people in the inner cities to do nothing and pick up a check each cycle. If people had to work for the welfare check and maybe get some pride in themselves maybe they can say to themselves that they want more. SOunds harsh but please feel free to correct me where I am wrong.
The nine scariest words in the english language. " I'm with the government and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
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Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 02:51 PM Post #87
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Nov 19 2008, 02:40 PM
You are going to have to somehow educate the adults in these areas before you can help educate the kids. They are in a cycle of drugs, gang banging no father around and sometimes no mother. Why try to better yourself when you look around and it appears there is no hope. The gov't needs to quit enabling people in the inner cities to do nothing and pick up a check each cycle. If people had to work for the welfare check and maybe get some pride in themselves maybe they can say to themselves that they want more. SOunds harsh but please feel free to correct me where I am wrong.
anyone who disagrees with you (every liberal on this board) should seriously (I am not kidding at all) spend a few hours on several different days at the welfare office literally just engage a few folks in conversations and listen very carefully to the other conversations going on around you. It is very enlightening in terms of the expectations most of these people have, and the absolute dependency and deprivation of ambition that this system has created. You can't get that experience from statistics and political speeches....it's a whole nother level. Until you have done that (which I have) you will be very naive in your discussions of this subject.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Nov 19 2008, 02:55 PM Post #88
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Nov 19 2008, 01:43 PM
aaronk2727
Nov 19 2008, 01:41 PM
dreachon
Nov 19 2008, 11:14 AM
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Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Right, because bad schools have nothing to do with funding or quality teachers. It's all on the students. Do you even listen to yourself?
ok, I'll concede that there are good schools and bad schools based on funding & teachers....etc. Please tell me how that is based on race. Are black people automatically assigned to the bad schools because of their color?
I thought I already mentioned that schools in poor areas are usually worse. Poor areas have predominantly black populations. So the kid (black or white) who attends these schools is continously receiving a poor education. And I think most people agree that the biggest opportunity a person can get is a quality education.
you're taking a 2nd degree association and trying to make a direct connection, which is fuzzy logic by any standard. Quality of education isn't tied to race, although it is tied to demographics in some cases. This is like saying that I wasn't born with an opportunity play in the NBA because the majority of NBA players are black, and I am white. I have the same opportunity, but if I'm not good enough, tall enough, fast enough, or don't work hard enough, I don't make it. Nobody is guaranteed equality of results....we are only guaranteed that the nation will not create inequality of opportunites based on race. You are very misguided in this argument
I understand what your saying here. Obviously quality of education isn't based on race. But as you said it is based on demographic area. What's it matter whether it is a 2nd degree association or not? Many blacks live in poor areas. Many poor areas have shitty schools. The children in these communities don't have the opportunity to receive a high quality education.

Maybe I'm confused on the actual point you are trying to make. If you're saying that black kids don't receive a poor education simply because they are black, then fine. I get that. But if you are trying to make the argument that these kids have the same opportunities as every other kid, then I completely disagree.
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Mr Gray Nov 19 2008, 03:07 PM Post #89
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Nov 19 2008, 10:19 AM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 19 2008, 09:04 AM
aaronk2727
Nov 18 2008, 09:55 PM
hoosierinhogville
Nov 18 2008, 04:52 PM
I am just trying to make some people on here understand that contrary to their anecdotal evidence, there is not equality in the U.S. today.
in your statement, are you measuring equality in terms of opportunity or results?
Both.
please enlighten me as to how equality is not met in terms of opportunity in this country?
Well we know that most poor areas are predominantlt black. And those areas usually have the worst schools. That means the kids who go to school in those areas have fewer opportunities then those who go to school in more affluent areas. I think that's a pretty simple, entirely factual argument as to why minorities currently dn't have as much opportunity as their white counterparts.
:rofl: :rofl: um....isn't it the academic results of the students that make a school "bad"? I could go a thousand directions on this one, but seriously...you don't really think that argument leaves a black person disadvantaged do you? Your own example points out that it is a condition of your geographic area and your economic status.....what the hell does that have to do with your skin color?
Right, because bad schools have nothing to do with funding or quality teachers. It's all on the students. Do you even listen to yourself?
ok, I'll concede that there are good schools and bad schools based on funding & teachers....etc. Please tell me how that is based on race. Are black people automatically assigned to the bad schools because of their color?
I thought I already mentioned that schools in poor areas are usually worse. Poor areas have predominantly black populations. So the kid (black or white) who attends these schools is continously receiving a poor education. And I think most people agree that the biggest opportunity a person can get is a quality education.
you're taking a 2nd degree association and trying to make a direct connection, which is fuzzy logic by any standard. Quality of education isn't tied to race, although it is tied to demographics in some cases. This is like saying that I wasn't born with an opportunity play in the NBA because the majority of NBA players are black, and I am white. I have the same opportunity, but if I'm not good enough, tall enough, fast enough, or don't work hard enough, I don't make it. Nobody is guaranteed equality of results....we are only guaranteed that the nation will not create inequality of opportunites based on race. You are very misguided in this argument
I understand what your saying here. Obviously quality of education isn't based on race. But as you said it is based on demographic area. What's it matter whether it is a 2nd degree association or not? Many blacks live in poor areas. Many poor areas have shitty schools. The children in these communities don't have the opportunity to receive a high quality education.

Maybe I'm confused on the actual point you are trying to make. If you're saying that black kids don't receive a poor education simply because they are black, then fine. I get that. But if you are trying to make the argument that these kids have the same opportunities as every other kid, then I completely disagree.
well, this started because Hog said that black people don't have the equal opportunities that white people have (not in so many words) in this country, which is bullshit. As we have agreed, demographics are a factor, but race is not. There are white people that live in these bad areas also.....do they get shuffled to a secret room in the school full of great teachers & better books? Of course not...so the problem isn't race whatsoever. Just because one race is more densely populated in an area that is problematic doesn't tie that race to the problem.

And btw, I actually still think that the opportunity is equal regardless of school or demos, or race....etc. There are plenty of self-educated millionairs out there to prove it.....did they all just get "lucky"....nope.
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HoosierLars Nov 19 2008, 03:17 PM Post #90
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Cattman96
Nov 19 2008, 02:40 PM
They are in a cycle of drugs, gang banging no father around and sometimes no mother. Why try to better yourself when you look around and it appears there is no hope.
These are the fruits of 40 years of liberalism and government spending to end poverty.
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