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gun control legislation introduced
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 16 2009, 09:11 AM (325 Views)
Mr Gray Feb 16 2009, 09:29 PM Post #31
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BoilerUpAT
Feb 16 2009, 08:02 PM
Bottom line is that it is un-Constitutional. Period. Standing by and letting any legislation like this get through is unpatriotic at best, disastrous at worst.
the Constitutionality of legislation is meaningless to today's high level politicians, on both sides of the aisle. We the people have the power to take it back, but unfortunately the majority of "we" just yawn when their rights are taken.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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boilergrad01 Feb 16 2009, 09:35 PM Post #32
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Hoosier_Faithful_07
Feb 16 2009, 08:36 PM
troubleatiu
Feb 16 2009, 07:29 PM
youre damn right this has a purpose. its to cut down on private, lawful ownership of guns and create a database that could be eventually used for a multitude of purposes.
criminals DO NOT abide by the law. thats why they are criminals.

That's a bad misconception. The majority of criminals get guns by having other people purchase them through legal methods. This occurs because there's not a good record of keeping track of who purchased a gun and holding them accountable for acts committed with their gun. Right now, I could drive to Alabama, buy a few handguns, drive to New York and sell them for $5000 each. I could make $50,000 in one trip with 10 guns. Because there's no database of gun purchases, very few of these guns are ever tracked back to the person who purchased them, which makes it very easy to do this. The thinking from Law Enforcement is that if I tried to do this with a national database, they'd have a record of me driving to 10 cities in Alabama and purchasing a handgun at each store. That looks pretty fishy. Right now, none of these places talk to each other, so the people doing this look like just an average citizen wanting one gun with no criminal record.

Like I've said, I don't agree with this legislation, but the purpose isn't some fraud like a lot of other bills. There's a lot of law enforcement officers that have lost their lives due to guns purchased legally.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


$5,000 a gun that is not what a gun on the street goes for.
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troubleatiu Feb 16 2009, 09:53 PM Post #33
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criminals will always find ways to try to beat it. theres 200 million guns in this country now, most not registered. (mines not, theres nothing that requires it.) a grinder to the serial number is all thats needed (mine has it in 2 places and i also own a grinder. you can get a cheap one for $20). voila, law circumvented. meanwhile, joe six-pack has to jump through hoops and wonder who gun control laws pertain to. weve had gun control discussions before and judging by your responses i dont think its a subject you pay alot of attention to. you told me earlier that theres no correlation between area of higher crime also being areas that have stronger gun laws.
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"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."--Henry Kissinger
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."- Adolph Hitler
"Terrorists don't want your freedoms--they want your life. It's dictators and tyrants who want your freedoms."-author unidentified
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boilergrad01 Feb 16 2009, 09:58 PM Post #34
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troubleatiu
Feb 16 2009, 09:53 PM
criminals will always find ways to try to beat it. theres 200 million guns in this country now, most not registered. (mines not, theres nothing that requires it.) a grinder to the serial number is all thats needed (mine has it in 2 places and i also own a grinder. you can get a cheap one for $20). voila, law circumvented. meanwhile, joe six-pack has to jump through hoops and wonder who gun control laws pertain to. weve had gun control discussions before and judging by your responses i dont think its a subject you pay alot of attention to. you told me earlier that theres no correlation between area of higher crime also being areas that have stronger gun laws.
Trouble who r u talking to?????

I am with you on this issue...
Nothing beats an Astronaut
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troubleatiu Feb 16 2009, 10:02 PM Post #35
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boilergrad01
Feb 16 2009, 09:58 PM
troubleatiu
Feb 16 2009, 09:53 PM
criminals will always find ways to try to beat it. theres 200 million guns in this country now, most not registered. (mines not, theres nothing that requires it.) a grinder to the serial number is all thats needed (mine has it in 2 places and i also own a grinder. you can get a cheap one for $20). voila, law circumvented. meanwhile, joe six-pack has to jump through hoops and wonder who gun control laws pertain to. weve had gun control discussions before and judging by your responses i dont think its a subject you pay alot of attention to. you told me earlier that theres no correlation between area of higher crime also being areas that have stronger gun laws.
Trouble who r u talking to?????

I am with you on this issue...
not you BG. that was directed at faithful.
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"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."--Henry Kissinger
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."- Adolph Hitler
"Terrorists don't want your freedoms--they want your life. It's dictators and tyrants who want your freedoms."-author unidentified
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yawnzzz Feb 16 2009, 10:59 PM Post #36
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boilergrad01
Feb 16 2009, 09:35 PM
Hoosier_Faithful_07
Feb 16 2009, 08:36 PM
troubleatiu
Feb 16 2009, 07:29 PM
youre damn right this has a purpose. its to cut down on private, lawful ownership of guns and create a database that could be eventually used for a multitude of purposes.
criminals DO NOT abide by the law. thats why they are criminals.

That's a bad misconception. The majority of criminals get guns by having other people purchase them through legal methods. This occurs because there's not a good record of keeping track of who purchased a gun and holding them accountable for acts committed with their gun. Right now, I could drive to Alabama, buy a few handguns, drive to New York and sell them for $5000 each. I could make $50,000 in one trip with 10 guns. Because there's no database of gun purchases, very few of these guns are ever tracked back to the person who purchased them, which makes it very easy to do this. The thinking from Law Enforcement is that if I tried to do this with a national database, they'd have a record of me driving to 10 cities in Alabama and purchasing a handgun at each store. That looks pretty fishy. Right now, none of these places talk to each other, so the people doing this look like just an average citizen wanting one gun with no criminal record.

Like I've said, I don't agree with this legislation, but the purpose isn't some fraud like a lot of other bills. There's a lot of law enforcement officers that have lost their lives due to guns purchased legally.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


$5,000 a gun that is not what a gun on the street goes for.
Depends what you're talking about. These aren't the same as stolen guns. If I went and bought something nice like a Desert Eagle for a grand, I could easily get $5000 for it in New York if I found someone that wanted it. Granted, most want a cheaper gun to dispose of, but most are still sold for at least a grand.

“A $200 to $300 weapon here is worth five times that in New York City or DC,” said Darren Gil of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). Drug dealers use different people and send them to different dealers to not raise suspicions, he added.

http://www.vermontguardian.com/local/122006/Guns.shtml
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yawnzzz Feb 16 2009, 11:11 PM Post #37
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troubleatiu
Feb 16 2009, 09:53 PM
criminals will always find ways to try to beat it. theres 200 million guns in this country now, most not registered. (mines not, theres nothing that requires it.) a grinder to the serial number is all thats needed (mine has it in 2 places and i also own a grinder. you can get a cheap one for $20). voila, law circumvented. meanwhile, joe six-pack has to jump through hoops and wonder who gun control laws pertain to. weve had gun control discussions before and judging by your responses i dont think its a subject you pay alot of attention to. you told me earlier that theres no correlation between area of higher crime also being areas that have stronger gun laws.
Listen, I studied Criminal Justice in college and discussed this topic ad nauseum. You haven't spit back one argument that I haven't heard a hundred times. I didn't argue against that areas that have Higher Crime have stronger gun laws. I pointed out that strong gun laws DO NOT work when you can drive across a state border to circumvent them.

Trying to track back to who sold it is only part of the law. The part that will work is that with a national database, ATF can see that my home is in Indiana, yet I traveled to Alabama to purchase 50 guns from 25 different gun stores. That throws a pretty big red flag. The purpose of these laws aren't to stop criminals, but to stop the people who actually buy the guns who have very little other association with crime.
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troubleatiu Feb 17 2009, 12:44 AM Post #38
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"The purpose of these laws aren't to stop criminals, but to stop the people who actually buy the guns who have very little other association with crime."-faithful

:wtf: did you just say? the purpose of these laws arent to stop criminals? then what IS the point of making a law? i cant believe you wrote that. i have a hard time believing the intent of this bill is to stop some petty gun runner.
i also told you there are approximately 200 million existing guns that could be used already in circulation, and not be subjected to these provisions. this bill is a clear violation of the 2nd and 4th amendments.
this is how orwellian laws get made in the first place. people say, "well i agree with that in principle", or "yeah, that makes sense to me" regardless of the constitutional legality. im fairly certain it takes another constitutional amendment to override an existing one, not an act of congress; regardless of their supposed "good intentions."

ill ask you this, do you feel the bill violates the constitution in any way?
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"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."--Henry Kissinger
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."- Adolph Hitler
"Terrorists don't want your freedoms--they want your life. It's dictators and tyrants who want your freedoms."-author unidentified
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Old_School Feb 17 2009, 01:34 AM Post #39
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boilergrad01
Feb 16 2009, 09:34 AM
Thank the Paulites. If they had turned out McCain would have won. He was evil so they say and instead the three headed liberal monster was formed. Trouble I know you voted with interest like these in mind but your otther brothers rubber stamped these kind of bills when the didn't support the only true opposition Obama and the Liberal agenda.
:lipflap: I'll direct you toward BoilerUpAT's response as my vicarious response.
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Old_School Feb 17 2009, 01:34 AM Post #40
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sirbrianwilson
Feb 16 2009, 10:57 AM
yawn.
Some defender of civil liberties...
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sirbrianwilson Feb 17 2009, 03:01 AM Post #41
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lol.

br
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yawnzzz Feb 17 2009, 09:19 AM Post #42
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troubleatiu
Feb 17 2009, 12:44 AM
"The purpose of these laws aren't to stop criminals, but to stop the people who actually buy the guns who have very little other association with crime."-faithful

:wtf: did you just say? the purpose of these laws arent to stop criminals? then what IS the point of making a law? i cant believe you wrote that. i have a hard time believing the intent of this bill is to stop some petty gun runner.
i also told you there are approximately 200 million existing guns that could be used already in circulation, and not be subjected to these provisions. this bill is a clear violation of the 2nd and 4th amendments.
this is how orwellian laws get made in the first place. people say, "well i agree with that in principle", or "yeah, that makes sense to me" regardless of the constitutional legality. im fairly certain it takes another constitutional amendment to override an existing one, not an act of congress; regardless of their supposed "good intentions."

ill ask you this, do you feel the bill violates the constitution in any way?
Trouble... man... you need to sober up. Very few laws are to stop criminals; they're to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place. It's the same principle of why you lock the doors on your house or car. A burglar is going to just break a window and take what he wants. Locks only keep your average citizen honest.

I've already told you several times that I'm against this bill. That doesn't mean it's a conspiracy to take away liberties. The Criminal Justice community has been pushing for this legislation for decades because it would without a doubt save police officers' lives. Whether that's worth taking away liberties is up to the individual; I'm sure if I was a police officer, my wife and family would be strongly pushing for this bill.
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troubleatiu Feb 17 2009, 09:28 AM Post #43
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Feb 17 2009, 09:19 AM
troubleatiu
Feb 17 2009, 12:44 AM
"The purpose of these laws aren't to stop criminals, but to stop the people who actually buy the guns who have very little other association with crime."-faithful

:wtf: did you just say? the purpose of these laws arent to stop criminals? then what IS the point of making a law? i cant believe you wrote that. i have a hard time believing the intent of this bill is to stop some petty gun runner.
i also told you there are approximately 200 million existing guns that could be used already in circulation, and not be subjected to these provisions. this bill is a clear violation of the 2nd and 4th amendments.
this is how orwellian laws get made in the first place. people say, "well i agree with that in principle", or "yeah, that makes sense to me" regardless of the constitutional legality. im fairly certain it takes another constitutional amendment to override an existing one, not an act of congress; regardless of their supposed "good intentions."

ill ask you this, do you feel the bill violates the constitution in any way?
Trouble... man... you need to sober up. Very few laws are to stop criminals; they're to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place. It's the same principle of why you lock the doors on your house or car. A burglar is going to just break a window and take what he wants. Locks only keep your average citizen honest.

I've already told you several times that I'm against this bill. That doesn't mean it's a conspiracy to take away liberties. The Criminal Justice community has been pushing for this legislation for decades because it would without a doubt save police officers' lives. Whether that's worth taking away liberties is up to the individual; I'm sure if I was a police officer, my wife and family would be strongly pushing for this bill.
first of all, im stone cold sober. 2ndly, i am beside myself that you think, " Very few laws are to stop criminals; they're to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place." that is totalitarian by its very nature. a law is made simply to classify a particular type of behavior as "criminal". i also personally believe this wouldnt save any lives. but thats my opinion. 3rd, do you feel this bill violates the constitution? specificly the 2nd and 4th amendments? if it does, i dont give a shit what law enforcement thinks, ITS NOT ALLOWED.
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"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."--Henry Kissinger
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."- Adolph Hitler
"Terrorists don't want your freedoms--they want your life. It's dictators and tyrants who want your freedoms."-author unidentified
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troubleatiu Feb 17 2009, 09:33 AM Post #44
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i also dont see how you classify my concerns as "a conspiracy to take away liberties" when so many of them already have been taken away. this is just another piece of the puzzle.
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"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."--Henry Kissinger
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."- Adolph Hitler
"Terrorists don't want your freedoms--they want your life. It's dictators and tyrants who want your freedoms."-author unidentified
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yawnzzz Feb 17 2009, 10:06 AM Post #45
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troubleatiu
Feb 17 2009, 09:28 AM
first of all, im stone cold sober. 2ndly, i am beside myself that you think, " Very few laws are to stop criminals; they're to prevent people from becoming criminals in the first place." that is totalitarian by its very nature. a law is made simply to classify a particular type of behavior as "criminal". i also personally believe this wouldnt save any lives. but thats my opinion. 3rd, do you feel this bill violates the constitution? specificly the 2nd and 4th amendments? if it does, i dont give a shit what law enforcement thinks, ITS NOT ALLOWED.
I've stated in every post that I'm AGAINST this bill because it takes away liberties. I don't know how to be any more clear.

Laws have two purposes: a deterrent and retribution. It's pretty simple, you right now are not a criminal because the threat of jail time has deterred you from selling weapons to deviants. As soon as you step over that line and become a criminal, it's no longer a deterrent. Laws only purpose than becomes retribution. It's not my opinion; it's a fact.

I haven't been arguing in favor of this bill; I've just been stating that it actually has a working purpose. Instead of shooting it dead, it would make a lot more sense to revise it within the confines of the Constitution. I don't see anything constitutionally wrong with having a federal database of gun owners.
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