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Obama picks Sonia Sotomayor for Supreme Court
Tweet Topic Started: May 26 2009, 07:33 AM (476 Views)
dreachon Jul 1 2009, 04:28 PM Post #46
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I think he was joking. Quite literally reverse discrimination would mean the opposite of discrimination
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IUCOLTFAN Jul 1 2009, 04:28 PM Post #47
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dreachon
Jul 1 2009, 01:31 PM
aaronk2727
Jul 1 2009, 01:19 PM
dreachon
Jul 1 2009, 01:08 PM
HoosierLars
Jul 1 2009, 12:59 PM
HoosierLars
Jun 30 2009, 09:19 PM
brumdog44
Jun 30 2009, 08:18 PM
dreachon
Jun 30 2009, 08:06 PM
HoosierLars
Jun 29 2009, 07:05 PM
dreachon
Jun 29 2009, 06:37 PM
But having a decision overturned? This is not a big deal. Any time there is a dissenting opinion in the Supreme Court (which is almost every case) it could be considered an overturned decision. Happens all the time with every judge in history.
The sad thing is cases like this one probably won't be overturned after she's on the court.
Actually she would replace Judge Souter who was among the dissenting opinions in this case. So at least in this example it would have no impact.
:owned:
I didn't bother to look up the voting record for this case. Which side of this argument do you some down on, Brum?
Brum, where do you come down on the discrimination vs reverse discrimination argument?
You know read the details of this case yesterday and I gotta say that I was torn on it. I mean Sotomayor was right that no one is "entitled" to a promotion. I can imagine the several business owners we have in here being forced to give promotions to their employees and the shitstorm that would follow.

That said, if the state is going to create a test to determine promotions, then shit you have to promote whoever passes the tests don't you? The real issue here is the stupidity of the state's promotion criteria, which hopefully will change and make this case moot.
no one is entitled to a promotion, however in this country one cannot have their promotion revoked based on the color of their skin. I'm not sure how you or anyone could be "torn" on that, unless you are a racist.
Agree. Torn because I don't think someone should be entitled to a promotion just for passing a test. I mean WTF is that about? The guy who shows up late and half asses it all the time gets promoted because he can answer some questions correctly? Shouldn't there be some other factors involved here?

But you are right, you absolutely cannot revoke the promotion once it's given. If the test is flawed, fine. You have to fix it for next year then. You can't retroactively say it's invalid. So in the end, I'm in agreement with the Supreme Court's final decision. It's the states own fault for creating a retarded promotion process. But they created it, so they have to live with it.
So, if you are a firefighter and have to pass a written and oral test to be promoted from Corporal to Captain (just examples) and the test and criteria is the same for everyone, why is this a "stupid" way to promote. Wouldnt the proper and fair way to promote people be to give everyone the same "test" to see how well they know their job? The lawyer for the "minorities" was arguing that the test was unfair due to the percentage that was written compared to the percentage that was oral............if it is the same for all, how exactly is this unfair?? If reading comprehension is the problem, maybe these people should have never gotten the jobs in the first place.

If this is the way promotions are and have been handed out, why is it now unfair or "stupid"? Just because no minorities were good enough at their jobs to be promoted? What if all the minorties passed and all the "Honky's" failed............would it still be unfair? I guarantee there would have been no questions asked and the promotions would have been given as usual!
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eelbor Jul 1 2009, 04:33 PM Post #48
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Jul 1 2009, 04:28 PM
So, if you are a firefighter and have to pass a written and oral test to be promoted from Corporal to Captain (just examples) and the test and criteria is the same for everyone, why is this a "stupid" way to promote. Wouldnt the proper and fair way to promote people be to give everyone the same "test" to see how well they know their job? The lawyer for the "minorities" was arguing that the test was unfair due to the percentage that was written compared to the percentage that was oral............if it is the same for all, how exactly is this unfair?? If reading comprehension is the problem, maybe these people should have never gotten the jobs in the first place.

If this is the way promotions are and have been handed out, why is it now unfair or "stupid"? Just because no minorities were good enough at their jobs to be promoted? What if all the minorties passed and all the "Honky's" failed............would it still be unfair? I guarantee there would have been no questions asked and the promotions would have been given as usual!
I would guess it is "stupid" because the test does not show someone's work ethic or their drive. I think it was meant that the idea of using a test to assign promotions that is stupid, not the results of that test.

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dreachon Jul 1 2009, 04:34 PM Post #49
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Jul 1 2009, 04:28 PM
So, if you are a firefighter and have to pass a written and oral test to be promoted from Corporal to Captain (just examples) and the test and criteria is the same for everyone, why is this a "stupid" way to promote. Wouldnt the proper and fair way to promote people be to give everyone the same "test" to see how well they know their job? The lawyer for the "minorities" was arguing that the test was unfair due to the percentage that was written compared to the percentage that was oral............if it is the same for all, how exactly is this unfair?? If reading comprehension is the problem, maybe these people should have never gotten the jobs in the first place.

If this is the way promotions are and have been handed out, why is it now unfair or "stupid"? Just because no minorities were good enough at their jobs to be promoted? What if all the minorties passed and all the "Honky's" failed............would it still be unfair? I guarantee there would have been no questions asked and the promotions would have been given as usual!
You misunderstood. It's not stupid because minorities did poorly at it. It's stupid because there should be other factors taken into consideration. Stuff like punctuality, work ethic, leadership ability, responsibility, etc. You want to promote a firefighter who lacks these qualities simply because he knows his job and passed a test?
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HoosierLars Jul 1 2009, 04:40 PM Post #50
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Jul 1 2009, 03:57 PM
I really think we need to get rid of the term 'reverse discrimination' because it clouds the issue. Both issues deal with the same thing: not getting the same rights based solely on race.
Well said. I agree.
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boilergrad01 Jul 1 2009, 04:58 PM Post #51
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Dreach,

In the Army promotions have different requirements based on what level you are promoted too. Officers have to prepare a packet and a board evaluates the packet. I do not know the entire process for the firefighters but usually in the Military you must be selected based on job performance to compete. I am sure the Firefighters had to overcome numerous hurdles before taking the test and the final decision was based on more than the test. Passing the test is probably a requirement.
Nothing beats an Astronaut
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IUCOLTFAN Jul 1 2009, 09:34 PM Post #52
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I seriously doubt that in a profession as prideful, respected, and dangerous as fire-fighting, their way of promoting isnt the best way possible to insure the safety of all. Questioning the testing motives of a profession such as this is laughable. I would not want my life in the hands of a co-worker who was not qualified to do the job, would you? Wouldnt you think these methods have proven well for the fire-fighters over the existence of the profession? Are we really qualified to tell these people how to hand out MASSIVE NEW RESPONSIBILITIES to their employees?
Just seems crazy to me to even question this.
Edited by IUCOLTFAN, Jul 1 2009, 09:34 PM.
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yawnzzz Jul 1 2009, 09:59 PM Post #53
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Jul 1 2009, 09:34 PM
I seriously doubt that in a profession as prideful, respected, and dangerous as fire-fighting, their way of promoting isnt the best way possible to insure the safety of all. Questioning the testing motives of a profession such as this is laughable. I would not want my life in the hands of a co-worker who was not qualified to do the job, would you? Wouldnt you think these methods have proven well for the fire-fighters over the existence of the profession? Are we really qualified to tell these people how to hand out MASSIVE NEW RESPONSIBILITIES to their employees?
Just seems crazy to me to even question this.
I believe it was the first time the test was administered, and it was developed by a consulting firm, not the firefighters themselves.

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In 2003, the New Haven, Connecticut, Fire Department sought to fill captain and lieutenant positions. Because its union contract required promotions to be based upon examinations, the City contracted with Industrial/Organizational Solutions, Inc. (“IOS”) to develop exams, which were administered to qualifying applicants.

Pursuant to a City regulation known as the “rule of three,” once test results are “certified,” the Department must promote from the group of applicants achieving the top three scores. Immediate application of the “rule of three” to these exams would not have allowed for the promotion of any black firefighters. More broadly, black applicants’ pass rate on the lieutenant exam was approximately half of the rate for white applicants – a disparity more marked than for prior exams.


The City's review board didn't certify the exams. If they did, the top scoring three applicants would be the only ones eligible for promotion at this time. The City did not certify the results because doing so could subject it to litigation for violating Title VII’s disparate impact prohibition.

Personally, I hate the fact that unions require these type of exams. It basically means the Chief has little say in who he can promote. That said, if they chose to use these exams and feel they're a good gauge of someone's capability of performing a job, then I don't think they should be thrown out. Further, the main complaint was that Black applicants were hindered on the written part, and the positions of Captain and Lieutenant are generally office positions where they have to deal with written paperwork on a daily basis.
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Mr Gray Jul 1 2009, 10:19 PM Post #54
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Jul 1 2009, 09:34 PM
I seriously doubt that in a profession as prideful, respected, and dangerous as fire-fighting, their way of promoting isnt the best way possible to insure the safety of all. Questioning the testing motives of a profession such as this is laughable. I would not want my life in the hands of a co-worker who was not qualified to do the job, would you? Wouldnt you think these methods have proven well for the fire-fighters over the existence of the profession? Are we really qualified to tell these people how to hand out MASSIVE NEW RESPONSIBILITIES to their employees?
Just seems crazy to me to even question this.
coltfan, unfortunately you are wrong on your assumption. My best friend if a full time fireman, and he has told me countless times that the promotion process is so extremely bureucratic that it has become a complete joke. The captains are almost never the best for the job, and based on the liability and responsibility of that job, nobody even wants it.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jul 1 2009, 10:19 PM Post #55
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brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 04:24 PM
aaron, don't know if you are joking or not, but I do not think what you are giving the accepted definition.

yourdictionary.com: discrimination in hiring, college admissions, etc. directed against members of certain social or racial groups, as white males, thought of as being dominant or having benefited from past discrimination against minority groups who are now favored, often as a result of affirmative action

websters.com: discrimination against whites or males (as in employment or education)
yes, I was joking. I looked up the definition of "discrimination" and tried my best to reverse it.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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