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Maybe we are the new China
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 1 2009, 03:26 PM (307 Views)
brumdog44 Jun 2 2009, 10:03 PM Post #31
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thePhilosopher
Jun 2 2009, 08:28 PM
Here's an update on the situation. Even the local gov't thinks this was wrong:

"A suburban California couple who has been hosting a weekly Bible study in their home has been given the green light to continue the meetings after earlier being ordered by San Diego County officials to stop the gatherings or seek a costly conditional use permit."

I'm involving religion? Actually, the officer on the scene did:

"Broyles said the officer asked Mary Jones several questions, including if the group prays or uses the words 'amen' and 'praise the Lord.' Jones answered yes."

And an interesting point from the attorney associated with the Bible study group:

“If the county was not targeting religious activity per se, it would presumably have to forbid any and all secular events where friends and neighbors are invited to a resident’s home on a regular basis, including, but not limited to in-home poker games, book club meetings, Monday night football parties, girl and boy scout meeting, Tupperware parties, Bunco nights, bridge clubs, etc,” the attorney wrote.
By legal precedent:

Free speech doesn't trump libel or slander.

Free speech doesn't give people the right to endanger....i.e., crying 'fire' in a crowded movie theatre.

The right to bear arms is not granted to convicted felons and is guided by registration laws.


I'm sure you think of several others. While the Constitution may be the supreme law of the land, it is not limitless in scope.
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thePhilosopher Jun 2 2009, 10:12 PM Post #32
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Good points. Sure, you can't use your freedoms in order to intrude on other people's freedoms. Even libertarians (like myself) believe that. Perhaps I worded what I said earlier too strongly. But there's a reason certain laws are "unconstitutional," right? That is, all laws must be in accordance with the Constitution, and it seems like these sort of "zoning" or "permit" laws infringe on people's First Amendment rights.

I just think its silly, in a free country, to need to get a permit in order to gather with a group of people. It seems you can eliminate constitutional rights for people just by burying them in red tape and bureaucracy. And I think that's how, eventually, the freedom of America's citizens will be taken away. Death by bureaucracy. Who cares about the population getting angry and making their voices heard when they need to jump through unnecessary hoops and can be denied that right at any time? Why worry about gun bans when you can just tax the hell out of guns and ammo?
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Mr Gray Jun 2 2009, 10:23 PM Post #33
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thePhilosopher
Jun 2 2009, 10:12 PM
Good points. Sure, you can't use your freedoms in order to intrude on other people's freedoms. Even libertarians (like myself) believe that. Perhaps I worded what I said earlier too strongly. But there's a reason certain laws are "unconstitutional," right? That is, all laws must be in accordance with the Constitution, and it seems like these sort of "zoning" or "permit" laws infringe on people's First Amendment rights.

I just think its silly, in a free country, to need to get a permit in order to gather with a group of people. It seems you can eliminate constitutional rights for people just by burying them in red tape and bureaucracy. And I think that's how, eventually, the freedom of America's citizens will be taken away. Death by bureaucracy. Who cares about the population getting angry and making their voices heard when they need to jump through unnecessary hoops and can be denied that right at any time? Why worry about gun bans when you can just tax the hell out of guns and ammo?
good points phil. I was taught a long time ago (in public school of all places) that freedom in this country is defined as the right to do anything you want as long as you aren't trumping the rights of another. That theory seems to be in line with libertarian philosophy, but isn't really applied in government anymore.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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thePhilosopher Jun 2 2009, 10:37 PM Post #34
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aaronk2727
Jun 2 2009, 10:23 PM
thePhilosopher
Jun 2 2009, 10:12 PM
Good points. Sure, you can't use your freedoms in order to intrude on other people's freedoms. Even libertarians (like myself) believe that. Perhaps I worded what I said earlier too strongly. But there's a reason certain laws are "unconstitutional," right? That is, all laws must be in accordance with the Constitution, and it seems like these sort of "zoning" or "permit" laws infringe on people's First Amendment rights.

I just think its silly, in a free country, to need to get a permit in order to gather with a group of people. It seems you can eliminate constitutional rights for people just by burying them in red tape and bureaucracy. And I think that's how, eventually, the freedom of America's citizens will be taken away. Death by bureaucracy. Who cares about the population getting angry and making their voices heard when they need to jump through unnecessary hoops and can be denied that right at any time? Why worry about gun bans when you can just tax the hell out of guns and ammo?
good points phil. I was taught a long time ago (in public school of all places) that freedom in this country is defined as the right to do anything you want as long as you aren't trumping the rights of another. That theory seems to be in line with libertarian philosophy, but isn't really applied in government anymore.
No sir, you need to ask and beg the gov't for basic things like getting together with a group of friends or protesting. You have to pay them for the privilege with your income tax, which doesn't go to anything like infrastructure or the like, but to service the debt created by our monetary policy. Its all a part of the freedom.

"Freedom" is why we're fighting al-Qaeda (who used to be the Mujahadeen, back when we supported them against the Soviets).

"Freedom" is why we took out Saddam (who we created, funded, and armed to be a counter-balance to the Iran).

The vets (including people in my family and people I knew in high school) went over there to fight and die for this version of "freedom." And its a damn travesty. We didn't go over there to preserve the union, but to further the empire. This whole thing has become a sick joke, and I'm so tired of the gov't and the media lying 24/7 and perpetuating this false world for all of the American population to consume.

Not to toot my own horn (I'm just a guy trying to figure stuff out), but libertarians and libertarian minded people are the only ones that actually understand freedom in our society today. Republicans don't get it, Democrats don't get it. Freedom used to be a radical idea that was dangerous because it couldn't be controlled. But with taxes, bureaucracy, and a complacent and willing MSM, our gov't is only about regulation and control. The libertarian view of freedom has become antiquated to most, and people find it so unrealistic they can't even understand it. Thankfully, our founders understood it and they've given us the framework to take it back.

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HoosierLars Jun 2 2009, 11:12 PM Post #35
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thePhilosopher
Jun 2 2009, 10:37 PM
Not to toot my own horn (I'm just a guy trying to figure stuff out), but libertarians and libertarian minded people are the only ones that actually understand freedom in our society today. Republicans don't get it, Democrats don't get it. Freedom used to be a radical idea that was dangerous because it couldn't be controlled. But with taxes, bureaucracy, and a complacent and willing MSM, our gov't is only about regulation and control. The libertarian view of freedom has become antiquated to most, and people find it so unrealistic they can't even understand it. Thankfully, our founders understood it and they've given us the framework to take it back.

Well said, Phil. :cheers:
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brumdog44 Jun 2 2009, 11:21 PM Post #36
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HoosierLars
Jun 2 2009, 11:12 PM
thePhilosopher
Jun 2 2009, 10:37 PM
Not to toot my own horn (I'm just a guy trying to figure stuff out), but libertarians and libertarian minded people are the only ones that actually understand freedom in our society today. Republicans don't get it, Democrats don't get it. Freedom used to be a radical idea that was dangerous because it couldn't be controlled. But with taxes, bureaucracy, and a complacent and willing MSM, our gov't is only about regulation and control. The libertarian view of freedom has become antiquated to most, and people find it so unrealistic they can't even understand it. Thankfully, our founders understood it and they've given us the framework to take it back.

Well said, Phil. :cheers:
Phil, you must not be married.

Tooting your own horn is basically the only way it gets tooted.
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Mr Gray Jun 8 2009, 12:13 PM Post #37
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similar. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525424,00.html
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor Jun 8 2009, 04:09 PM Post #38
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funny, I live in Tulsa and this was not news here.


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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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