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Chrysler-Fiat Deal Goes Through; Indiana Pension Funds Get Screwed
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 10 2009, 09:29 AM (176 Views)
thePhilosopher Jun 10 2009, 09:29 AM Post #1
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CBS

So the gov't can come in and re-write contracts in a time of bankruptcy? Was the gov't really that worried that Fiat would walk away after June 15? And why is liquidation not an option?

So many questions, and this thing screams of injustice. Actually, it sounds like fascism. This administration's "socialist" tendencies don't bother me nearly as much as the Obama and Bush administrations move towards centralized power and flouting the rule of law. The more situations develop, I can't help but think "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." While Bush may have ignored the rule of law with the Patriot Act, rendition, Gitmo, etc., Obama is practicing all of Bush's legal vices as well as re-writing contracts to BENEFIT the administration's interests.

People should be out in the streets on this, but we'll keep taking it. That is, until all of this bullshit finally really effects the public and they can't pay for bread or cable TV because the currency is destroyed. Then it will be too late.

/rant.
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HoosierLars Jun 10 2009, 09:50 AM Post #2
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What percentage of the pension fund was invested in Chrysler?
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BoilerUpAT Jun 10 2009, 09:58 AM Post #3
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Traded in the pitchfork for my SKS. I got 1000 rounds and am ready to go.............

REVOLUTION anyone?
Close by the Wabash, In famed Hoosier land, Stands old Purdue, Serene and Grand, Cherished in Memory, By all her sons and daughters true, Fair Alma Mater, All Hail Purdue
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thePhilosopher Jun 10 2009, 10:00 AM Post #4
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Indiana Pensions

This source has more numbers. The teacher's fund mentioned is $7.8B and they've invested $32.4M in secured debt in Chrysler.

My concerns at the moment are that (1) the gov't can come in and restructure any sort of contract on the fly, and (2) that secured lenders for companies are going to be very difficult to find, which will make the federal gov't even more likely to be the secured lender for many more businesses.
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Mr Gray Jun 10 2009, 10:05 AM Post #5
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thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 09:29 AM
CBS

So the gov't can come in and re-write contracts in a time of bankruptcy? Was the gov't really that worried that Fiat would walk away after June 15? And why is liquidation not an option?

So many questions, and this thing screams of injustice. Actually, it sounds like fascism. This administration's "socialist" tendencies don't bother me nearly as much as the Obama and Bush administrations move towards centralized power and flouting the rule of law. The more situations develop, I can't help but think "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." While Bush may have ignored the rule of law with the Patriot Act, rendition, Gitmo, etc., Obama is practicing all of Bush's legal vices as well as re-writing contracts to BENEFIT the administration's interests.

People should be out in the streets on this, but we'll keep taking it. That is, until all of this bullshit finally really effects the public and they can't pay for bread or cable TV because the currency is destroyed. Then it will be too late.

/rant.
2nd
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Jun 10 2009, 10:59 AM Post #6
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thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 10:00 AM
Indiana Pensions

This source has more numbers. The teacher's fund mentioned is $7.8B and they've invested $32.4M in secured debt in Chrysler.

My concerns at the moment are that (1) the gov't can come in and restructure any sort of contract on the fly, and (2) that secured lenders for companies are going to be very difficult to find, which will make the federal gov't even more likely to be the secured lender for many more businesses.
I'm glad they have less than 0.5% invested. So instead of getting back 1/2 of their money, they're only getting back 1/4. So the difference is 1/4 of 0.5%, or 0.125% of the total fund value being lost due to this injustice.

That said, this is a total rip-off, and The Messiah and Tax Cheat Geithner should be ashamed of themselves.
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thePhilosopher Jun 10 2009, 11:14 AM Post #7
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HoosierLars
Jun 10 2009, 10:59 AM
thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 10:00 AM
Indiana Pensions

This source has more numbers. The teacher's fund mentioned is $7.8B and they've invested $32.4M in secured debt in Chrysler.

My concerns at the moment are that (1) the gov't can come in and restructure any sort of contract on the fly, and (2) that secured lenders for companies are going to be very difficult to find, which will make the federal gov't even more likely to be the secured lender for many more businesses.
I'm glad they have less than 0.5% invested. So instead of getting back 1/2 of their money, they're only getting back 1/4. So the difference is 1/4 of 0.5%, or 0.125% of the total fund value being lost due to this injustice.

That said, this is a total rip-off, and The Messiah and Tax Cheat Geithner should be ashamed of themselves.
Its more than a rip-off. Contracts are fundamental to any sort of economic activity. If the gov't came come in and re-write contracts, such as one between a secured lender and a company, then nothing is off the table. It is also unconstitutional, if you take the "takings clause" of the 5th amendment (i.e. gov't cannot take property without just compensation) to be important.

The US gov't can do whatever it wants, and there's nothing we can do about it. They can rendition you if you're declared an enemy combatant, they can take your property if its for the common good, and they can rewrite any contract if they want. Welcome to serfdom.
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IUCOLTFAN Jun 10 2009, 12:39 PM Post #8
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aaronk2727
Jun 10 2009, 10:05 AM
thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 09:29 AM
CBS

So the gov't can come in and re-write contracts in a time of bankruptcy? Was the gov't really that worried that Fiat would walk away after June 15? And why is liquidation not an option?

So many questions, and this thing screams of injustice. Actually, it sounds like fascism. This administration's "socialist" tendencies don't bother me nearly as much as the Obama and Bush administrations move towards centralized power and flouting the rule of law. The more situations develop, I can't help but think "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." While Bush may have ignored the rule of law with the Patriot Act, rendition, Gitmo, etc., Obama is practicing all of Bush's legal vices as well as re-writing contracts to BENEFIT the administration's interests.

People should be out in the streets on this, but we'll keep taking it. That is, until all of this bullshit finally really effects the public and they can't pay for bread or cable TV because the currency is destroyed. Then it will be too late.

/rant.
2nd
3rd
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Mr Gray Jun 10 2009, 12:59 PM Post #9
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thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 11:14 AM
Its more than a rip-off. Contracts are fundamental to any sort of economic activity. If the gov't came come in and re-write contracts, such as one between a secured lender and a company, then nothing is off the table. It is also unconstitutional, if you take the "takings clause" of the 5th amendment (i.e. gov't cannot take property without just compensation) to be important.

The US gov't can do whatever it wants, and there's nothing we can do about it. They can rendition you if you're declared an enemy combatant, they can take your property if its for the common good, and they can rewrite any contract if they want. Welcome to serfdom.
Phil, it is atrocious but unfortunately the government has been allowed to re-write/break contracts for quite some time via bankruptcy laws. You just have the be on the receiving end of that screwjob one time to realize that (which I have). There are those on this board who will advocate bankruptcy laws because they are (reasonable), but in my mind they set the dangerous precident which is being exercised today with Chrysler & GM (soon).
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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thePhilosopher Jun 10 2009, 03:31 PM Post #10
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aaronk2727
Jun 10 2009, 12:59 PM
thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 11:14 AM
Its more than a rip-off. Contracts are fundamental to any sort of economic activity. If the gov't came come in and re-write contracts, such as one between a secured lender and a company, then nothing is off the table. It is also unconstitutional, if you take the "takings clause" of the 5th amendment (i.e. gov't cannot take property without just compensation) to be important.

The US gov't can do whatever it wants, and there's nothing we can do about it. They can rendition you if you're declared an enemy combatant, they can take your property if its for the common good, and they can rewrite any contract if they want. Welcome to serfdom.
Phil, it is atrocious but unfortunately the government has been allowed to re-write/break contracts for quite some time via bankruptcy laws. You just have the be on the receiving end of that screwjob one time to realize that (which I have). There are those on this board who will advocate bankruptcy laws because they are (reasonable), but in my mind they set the dangerous precident which is being exercised today with Chrysler & GM (soon).
I'm fine with bankruptcy law as I understand it. I plan on studying about it in law school, so I'm not sure how I'll feel about bankruptcy after studying it. But this isn't "bankruptcy," but something like "bankruptcy as the gov't says so." That's fascism. You simply can't go in and renegotiate by coercion and force, and leave secured lenders hanging in the wind. If they can't pay the secured lenders their due, they need to liquidate. You just can't do business like this.

Maybe there's some darker conspiracy on the part of the gov't to drive away anybody with half a brain from being a secured lender. That way, the gov't is the only game in town. I'm not sure if this is remotely true, but this line of thinking is the only way I can make sense of what the gov't is doing.
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brumdog44 Jun 10 2009, 04:38 PM Post #11
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IUCOLTFAN
Jun 10 2009, 12:39 PM
aaronk2727
Jun 10 2009, 10:05 AM
thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 09:29 AM
CBS

So the gov't can come in and re-write contracts in a time of bankruptcy? Was the gov't really that worried that Fiat would walk away after June 15? And why is liquidation not an option?

So many questions, and this thing screams of injustice. Actually, it sounds like fascism. This administration's "socialist" tendencies don't bother me nearly as much as the Obama and Bush administrations move towards centralized power and flouting the rule of law. The more situations develop, I can't help but think "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." While Bush may have ignored the rule of law with the Patriot Act, rendition, Gitmo, etc., Obama is practicing all of Bush's legal vices as well as re-writing contracts to BENEFIT the administration's interests.

People should be out in the streets on this, but we'll keep taking it. That is, until all of this bullshit finally really effects the public and they can't pay for bread or cable TV because the currency is destroyed. Then it will be too late.

/rant.
2nd
3rd
4th. Rarely are we all on the same page.

Obviously I have a vested interest in the lawsuit, but I'm wholeheartedly against rewriting contracted agreements.

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Mr Gray Jun 10 2009, 08:22 PM Post #12
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thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 03:31 PM
aaronk2727
Jun 10 2009, 12:59 PM
thePhilosopher
Jun 10 2009, 11:14 AM
Its more than a rip-off. Contracts are fundamental to any sort of economic activity. If the gov't came come in and re-write contracts, such as one between a secured lender and a company, then nothing is off the table. It is also unconstitutional, if you take the "takings clause" of the 5th amendment (i.e. gov't cannot take property without just compensation) to be important.

The US gov't can do whatever it wants, and there's nothing we can do about it. They can rendition you if you're declared an enemy combatant, they can take your property if its for the common good, and they can rewrite any contract if they want. Welcome to serfdom.
Phil, it is atrocious but unfortunately the government has been allowed to re-write/break contracts for quite some time via bankruptcy laws. You just have the be on the receiving end of that screwjob one time to realize that (which I have). There are those on this board who will advocate bankruptcy laws because they are (reasonable), but in my mind they set the dangerous precident which is being exercised today with Chrysler & GM (soon).
I'm fine with bankruptcy law as I understand it. I plan on studying about it in law school, so I'm not sure how I'll feel about bankruptcy after studying it. But this isn't "bankruptcy," but something like "bankruptcy as the gov't says so." That's fascism. You simply can't go in and renegotiate by coercion and force, and leave secured lenders hanging in the wind. If they can't pay the secured lenders their due, they need to liquidate. You just can't do business like this.

Maybe there's some darker conspiracy on the part of the gov't to drive away anybody with half a brain from being a secured lender. That way, the gov't is the only game in town. I'm not sure if this is remotely true, but this line of thinking is the only way I can make sense of what the gov't is doing.
phil,
One of my companies had a contract with Dana Corp which at the time amounted to $2,800. They maxed their liability to me then declared bankuptcy the next day. Under bankruptcy law, the government comes in and userpts or "re-writes" my contract, essentially saying that it is now only worth $300, although the CEO received a 7 figure salary in that same year. Not really much different.....we have just been conditioned to accept this because it is billed as "compasisonate" because people experience hard times. The principle of intervening and rewriting private contracts & committments is the same.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jun 10 2009, 09:05 PM Post #13
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BTW --

In a mailer today, I recieved a $1000 voucher toward a new Chrysler car announcing that they had been bought by Fiat.

It was dated May 2009.

I'm not shitting you.
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Mr Gray Jun 10 2009, 09:52 PM Post #14
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brumdog44
Jun 10 2009, 09:05 PM
BTW --

In a mailer today, I recieved a $1000 voucher toward a new Chrysler car announcing that they had been bought by Fiat.

It was dated May 2009.

I'm not shitting you.
I assume you are going to tell them to :fuckyou:
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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BoilerUpAT Jun 11 2009, 06:37 AM Post #15
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brumdog44
Jun 10 2009, 09:05 PM
BTW --

In a mailer today, I recieved a $1000 voucher toward a new Chrysler car announcing that they had been bought by Fiat.

It was dated May 2009.

I'm not shitting you.
WTF? Are you serious? I don't know why I am surprised...................

Wipe your ass with it and send it back to them
Close by the Wabash, In famed Hoosier land, Stands old Purdue, Serene and Grand, Cherished in Memory, By all her sons and daughters true, Fair Alma Mater, All Hail Purdue
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