Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Logo
Search Members FAQ Portal
  • Navigation
  • Our Hoosier Board
  • →
  • Other
  • →
  • Politics
  • →
  • Business question
Welcome to Our Hoosier Board!

Most of the posters here have been around for nearly a decade now. You'll find their knowledge and insight to be second to none. We have a really strong community and value everyone's opinions.

Feel free to jump into any thread and voice your opinion with conviction. We love heated debates and even some fanbase ribbing from time to time. We pride ourselves on the lack of moderation needed to make this board successful.

Please remember that we have been around many years and have an astute ability to tell the difference between an immature, childish, trash-talking troll and a passionate fan voicing his or her opinion. It is at the discretion of Jazen and myself whether any moderating actions should be taken at any given time. It's a very, very rare thing. In other words, no worries....you'll be fine!

Cheers,
sirbrianwilson

Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Business question
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 1 2009, 02:07 AM (380 Views)
brumdog44 Jul 1 2009, 08:47 PM Post #31
Member Avatar
The guy picked last in gym class
Posts:
43,823
Group:
Members
Member
#181
Joined:
February 20, 2008
yawnzzz
Jul 1 2009, 06:38 PM
Another thought is that won't this give teachers an incentive to go to worse schools? If teachers at your school have learned your tricks of the trade, then your students will likely come in where they should be, which leaves less room for improvement unless you're able to increase them a grade a head of where they should be.
2008-9: Gary school systems had an average teacher salary of $58,900. I am at the top of the Masters scale at my school system and I don't make that base salary.

2008-9: Indianapolis Public Schools: average salary of $51,700.

2008-9: Fort Wayne: $51,300

State average is between $46 and $47,000.

Right now you are assured of a couple of things in Indiana: if you are a teacher in an affluent city OR if you are in a teacher in a high risk area, you will be paid at the highest rates.

So it's not salary that's keeping teachers from moving in to the high risk area. My district has an average salary of $45,000 and is just south of Gary, but if I were offered $45,000 more than that to teach there, I'd pass. I don't need the ulcer.

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brumdog44 Jul 1 2009, 08:51 PM Post #32
Member Avatar
The guy picked last in gym class
Posts:
43,823
Group:
Members
Member
#181
Joined:
February 20, 2008
Lars --

BTW, I do know the whole 'discovery' teaching method you are talking about in math. I'm fortunate that my kids have not been taught that way at school. Odds are if your kids are being taught that way it is probably being dictated by the district to do so.

Although it seems that at fourth grade it's way too elementary to do so, if I were you I'd just sit down a couple of times per month and have my kid go through the multiplication tables. It's incredible how many kids and young adults these days don't have them memorized.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
yawnzzz Jul 1 2009, 09:07 PM Post #33
Member Avatar
Coach
Posts:
4,964
Group:
Members
Member
#58
Joined:
February 6, 2008
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 08:51 PM
Lars --

BTW, I do know the whole 'discovery' teaching method you are talking about in math. I'm fortunate that my kids have not been taught that way at school. Odds are if your kids are being taught that way it is probably being dictated by the district to do so.

Although it seems that at fourth grade it's way too elementary to do so, if I were you I'd just sit down a couple of times per month and have my kid go through the multiplication tables. It's incredible how many kids and young adults these days don't have them memorized.
I agree with your point on salary and could definitely see where it wouldn't make sense. I doubt too many teachers would want to move their family just to make a little more money along with having students that are generally harder to teach.

I'd be curious what this 'discovery' method is.

I was taught the multiplication tables in 3rd grade. I remember that because the way our teacher taught them gave a lot of motivation to doing well. She gave us a multiplication exam every day where you had probably 100 multiplication problems to solve in 60 seconds. Then she had a board on the wall with 0-100 listed and a sticky thing with everyone's name. So you got to watch your progress as you got higher up the chart. She also had a merit system where if you improved, you received tokens equal to the amount of points you improved by. These could then be used to buy toys that she purchased. I still remember purchasing a toy semi-truck with my tokens.

It might not work for everyone and might discourage some, but for me, it was great. I loved doing things quick and seeing my progress, so I remember consistently being the top person on that chart and to this day, I can multiply in my head quicker than anyone I work with. That's probably because with a 60 second time limit, you had to solve each problem in under a second, so you had to memorize the basics. I still remember my method of any number multiplied by 9... I'd take multiplied by 10 minus the number. Just seemed easier to me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HoosierLars Jul 1 2009, 10:24 PM Post #34
Member Avatar
3 in a row
Posts:
22,916
Group:
Members
Member
#20
Joined:
February 5, 2008
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 08:51 PM
Lars --

BTW, I do know the whole 'discovery' teaching method you are talking about in math. I'm fortunate that my kids have not been taught that way at school. Odds are if your kids are being taught that way it is probably being dictated by the district to do so.

Although it seems that at fourth grade it's way too elementary to do so, if I were you I'd just sit down a couple of times per month and have my kid go through the multiplication tables. It's incredible how many kids and young adults these days don't have them memorized.
I work with my daughter a lot, and she switched from TERC to Math Expressions last year, something I like a lot better.

For Yawnzzz, Discovery math is a bunch of kids sitting at the same table together, :wanker: , and they try to reinvent the wheel so they "really learn" things. The smarter kids tend to do all of the work, and don't learn near as much. But some people think it's great!
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
boilergrad01 Jul 1 2009, 10:27 PM Post #35
Working on the last 5
Posts:
10,098
Group:
Members
Member
#135
Joined:
February 9, 2008
yawnzzz
Jul 1 2009, 09:07 PM
I still remember my method of any number multiplied by 9... I'd take multiplied by 10 minus the number. Just seemed easier to me.
Yawnnnnzzz,

I use the same method. Football taught me the numbers multiplied by 7
Nothing beats an Astronaut
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr Gray Jul 1 2009, 10:45 PM Post #36
Member Avatar
Coach
Posts:
16,503
Group:
Members
Member
#26
Joined:
February 5, 2008
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 08:51 PM
and have my kid go through the multiplication tables. It's incredible how many kids and young adults these days don't have them memorized.
I know I had to recite the multiplication table twice per day, 3 times per week. I think doing it those 8 times/week really helped. :D
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr Gray Jul 1 2009, 11:08 PM Post #37
Member Avatar
Coach
Posts:
16,503
Group:
Members
Member
#26
Joined:
February 5, 2008
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 04:18 PM
aaronk2727
Jul 1 2009, 04:06 PM
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 03:53 PM
eelbor
Jul 1 2009, 01:09 PM
In my industry, it is easy to reverse engineer our products and process and changes to our products and process. It is much better to sell the improvements to our process for a profit, before they are taken without us making a dime.
In the parallel case that I will bring up later, it is not going to be easy to reverse engineer the product. In terms of loyalty, there are built in incentives for a worker not to share trade secrets because the profit that a company earns in comparison to other companies will be reflected in individual salary.
you gonna get to it or what? :lipflap:
You want it, you got it:

Merit pay for teachers, as would currently be scheduled in Indiana, would be based on student improvement in comparison to other classrooms in the state.

Let's say I'm a fourth grade teacher and I have a class of children at second grade level reading. In working with him, he improves to fourth grade level at the end of the year.

Another teacher has a similar classroom of children at second grade level reading, but only is able to get them up to a third grade reading level by the end of the year.

Greater merit pay would be given to the first teacher. Now, here's the rub: the first teacher will benefit in the future by not sharing any information with the second teacher in how to improve her students. School districts will also benefit financially by not sharing any effective techniques in improving their students' performances.

When you make education about competition instead of being about actual improvement, you've turned into a business. I guarantee you that schools would absolutely LOVE for other schools to drop in their performance levels because it makes their individual school look better. I can tell you right now that even without merit pay in place, this is taking place in which schools do not share effective strategies with each other....if merit pay is in place, you will see this now happening at the individual teacher level as well.
Brum, you've got a good point here. If that is the attitude of the average teacher regarding merit pay I will have to take your word for it and assume you aren't just basing it on your sentiment alone.

Now, the problem with this is that you are trying to apply capitalistic business principles to a public, governmentally controlled enterprise. Competition in the school system ABSOLUTELY is a good thing and will improve the quality of education, however as you have described the merit system currently in place, it obviously has serious functional flaws (as is typical of a bunch of government officials largely with no business experience and/or experience specific to the enterprise which they are trying to regulate).

As you know, I am no fan of the public school system, and I contend that the business principles of competition would apply and succeed in a private system. Since we apparently must have a public system, let me offer a suggestion about how a true merit setup would work under the public system.

1) Each school system will have a min/max budget for payroll per school
2) The system can use that scale to assign individual min/max levels based on seniority and education level (or other qualifications) as they wish to each teacher within the respective school/system
3) A series of qualitative/quantitative criteria for performance would be set up. Perhaps this would include dropout/graduation rate, grade card scores, ISTEP, and percentage of students who go on to acquire college degrees
4) Your teacher salary is based upon where your performance measurements set to you on the min/max scale (example: Min=$35,000 Max=$55,000)
5) All moneys left below the max level will be set into a fund for teacher education seminars and additional training
Example: If your school had a minimum of $700,000 and a max of $110,000 and your performance came in at about halfway on the scale, you would have $900,000 in salaries and $200,000 in a fund for teacher education & seminars.

This pays all teachers based on their performance, but offers no reason not to share trade secrets with others. It also rewards good teachers regardless of the performance of their school or district.

Tony Bennett ---> e9dwux headbang2 <--- Me
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brumdog44 Jul 2 2009, 01:27 AM Post #38
Member Avatar
The guy picked last in gym class
Posts:
43,823
Group:
Members
Member
#181
Joined:
February 20, 2008
aaron --

Private schools will exceed public schools in achievement so long as they have stronger clientale.

Take Gary West Side students and put them at Andrean and their staff will have quit within a week.

Did you attend a public or private school, aaron?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr Gray Jul 2 2009, 08:54 AM Post #39
Member Avatar
Coach
Posts:
16,503
Group:
Members
Member
#26
Joined:
February 5, 2008
brumdog44
Jul 2 2009, 01:27 AM
aaron --

Private schools will exceed public schools in achievement so long as they have stronger clientale.

Take Gary West Side students and put them at Andrean and their staff will have quit within a week.

Did you attend a public or private school, aaron?
I attended public school. And I agree with you for the most part on why private schools outperform public schools. It doesn't change my thoughts on a private system though. I believe that many (if not most) kids wouldn't give 2 shits about school if it weren't for their parents pushing them and getting on their ass. If I have to pay $5,000 for my daughter to go to school you can bet that I am going to care MUCH more about it than some parent in Gary, IN who contributes absolutely nothing to the system and views it as not much more than free daycare.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HoosierLars Jul 2 2009, 09:46 AM Post #40
Member Avatar
3 in a row
Posts:
22,916
Group:
Members
Member
#20
Joined:
February 5, 2008
aaronk2727
Jul 1 2009, 11:08 PM
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 04:18 PM
aaronk2727
Jul 1 2009, 04:06 PM
brumdog44
Jul 1 2009, 03:53 PM
eelbor
Jul 1 2009, 01:09 PM
In my industry, it is easy to reverse engineer our products and process and changes to our products and process. It is much better to sell the improvements to our process for a profit, before they are taken without us making a dime.
In the parallel case that I will bring up later, it is not going to be easy to reverse engineer the product. In terms of loyalty, there are built in incentives for a worker not to share trade secrets because the profit that a company earns in comparison to other companies will be reflected in individual salary.
you gonna get to it or what? :lipflap:
You want it, you got it:

Merit pay for teachers, as would currently be scheduled in Indiana, would be based on student improvement in comparison to other classrooms in the state.

Let's say I'm a fourth grade teacher and I have a class of children at second grade level reading. In working with him, he improves to fourth grade level at the end of the year.

Another teacher has a similar classroom of children at second grade level reading, but only is able to get them up to a third grade reading level by the end of the year.

Greater merit pay would be given to the first teacher. Now, here's the rub: the first teacher will benefit in the future by not sharing any information with the second teacher in how to improve her students. School districts will also benefit financially by not sharing any effective techniques in improving their students' performances.

When you make education about competition instead of being about actual improvement, you've turned into a business. I guarantee you that schools would absolutely LOVE for other schools to drop in their performance levels because it makes their individual school look better. I can tell you right now that even without merit pay in place, this is taking place in which schools do not share effective strategies with each other....if merit pay is in place, you will see this now happening at the individual teacher level as well.
Brum, you've got a good point here. If that is the attitude of the average teacher regarding merit pay I will have to take your word for it and assume you aren't just basing it on your sentiment alone.

Now, the problem with this is that you are trying to apply capitalistic business principles to a public, governmentally controlled enterprise. Competition in the school system ABSOLUTELY is a good thing and will improve the quality of education, however as you have described the merit system currently in place, it obviously has serious functional flaws (as is typical of a bunch of government officials largely with no business experience and/or experience specific to the enterprise which they are trying to regulate).

As you know, I am no fan of the public school system, and I contend that the business principles of competition would apply and succeed in a private system. Since we apparently must have a public system, let me offer a suggestion about how a true merit setup would work under the public system.

1) Each school system will have a min/max budget for payroll per school
2) The system can use that scale to assign individual min/max levels based on seniority and education level (or other qualifications) as they wish to each teacher within the respective school/system
3) A series of qualitative/quantitative criteria for performance would be set up. Perhaps this would include dropout/graduation rate, grade card scores, ISTEP, and percentage of students who go on to acquire college degrees
4) Your teacher salary is based upon where your performance measurements set to you on the min/max scale (example: Min=$35,000 Max=$55,000)
5) All moneys left below the max level will be set into a fund for teacher education seminars and additional training
Example: If your school had a minimum of $700,000 and a max of $110,000 and your performance came in at about halfway on the scale, you would have $900,000 in salaries and $200,000 in a fund for teacher education & seminars.

This pays all teachers based on their performance, but offers no reason not to share trade secrets with others. It also rewards good teachers regardless of the performance of their school or district.

Tony Bennett ---> e9dwux headbang2 <--- Me
The key to this system working is having administrators who are compensating the teachers using the correct criteria. You know they would tend to reward the more liberal teachers, and the ones who kiss ass better. Weather you're talking about teachers or a corporation, once the leadership is fucked up, it's very difficult to correct. Fortunately, in business, the more fucked up companies eventually fail. (see GM and Chrysler)
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brumdog44 Jul 2 2009, 12:26 PM Post #41
Member Avatar
The guy picked last in gym class
Posts:
43,823
Group:
Members
Member
#181
Joined:
February 20, 2008
They will reward the teachers who kiss ass better, that is true. Not sure why you equate rewards going to 'the more liberal teachers,' though....administration by and large are highly conservative.

Last I looked bad businesses don't fail, they get bailed out. If education were being run like a bad business once a school underperformed, the administration would recieve some big buyout package and the school would simply release their students from their jobs.
Edited by brumdog44, Jul 2 2009, 12:29 PM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HoosierLars Jul 2 2009, 12:30 PM Post #42
Member Avatar
3 in a row
Posts:
22,916
Group:
Members
Member
#20
Joined:
February 5, 2008
brumdog44
Jul 2 2009, 12:26 PM
They will reward the teachers who kiss ass better, that is true. Not sure why you equate rewards going to 'the more liberal teachers,' though....administration by and large are highly conservative.
I drew that conclusion since the NEA is a branch of the Democratic Party. Conservative pencil pushers tend to suck ass about as much as liberal ones.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sirbrianwilson Jul 2 2009, 05:25 PM Post #43
Member Avatar
Stemlerite
Posts:
22,404
Group:
Admin
Member
#1
Joined:
February 4, 2008
share it!

if you don't, you're shooting yourself in the foot. never a good idea to isolate yourself. take on the competition.

br
Posted Image
Posted Image
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr Gray Jul 2 2009, 05:43 PM Post #44
Member Avatar
Coach
Posts:
16,503
Group:
Members
Member
#26
Joined:
February 5, 2008
sirbrianwilson
Jul 2 2009, 05:25 PM
share it!

if you don't, you're shooting yourself in the foot. never a good idea to isolate yourself. take on the competition.

br
:rofl: says the communist
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sirbrianwilson Jul 2 2009, 08:26 PM Post #45
Member Avatar
Stemlerite
Posts:
22,404
Group:
Admin
Member
#1
Joined:
February 4, 2008
aaronk2727
Jul 2 2009, 05:43 PM
sirbrianwilson
Jul 2 2009, 05:25 PM
share it!

if you don't, you're shooting yourself in the foot. never a good idea to isolate yourself. take on the competition.

br
:rofl: says the communist
eh?

br
Posted Image
Posted Image
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4

Track Topic · E-mail Topic Time: 7:44 PM Jul 10
Hosted for free by ZetaBoards · Privacy Policy