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Solving Problems
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 28 2010, 04:38 PM (985 Views)
BTown11 Dec 29 2010, 03:30 AM Post #16
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when I was in HS we used to switch up defense all the damn time. man, 3-2 zone, matchup zone, 1-3-1, traps, presses, etc. used to give opponents fits.
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dçamden03 Dec 29 2010, 03:32 AM Post #17
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jdm3
Dec 29 2010, 03:23 AM
dçamden03
Dec 29 2010, 02:56 AM
BTown11
Dec 28 2010, 11:59 PM
that's really not the point. you rotate as a team. when you play the zone you're supposed to play as though you're one. Elston doesn't communicate effectively enough inside the zone, but I think not rotating is a team problem.
Crean needs to figure out what he wants IU to be defensively. Is IU a zone program or man program? Being average at both is not good. Find a defense, teach it, and own it.
Seems to be the problem exactly. I think Crean wants us to be a man to man program, be able to have the depth at guard to be able to pressure the ball all the way up the court.

However, right now we do not have the athletes to be able to do this. I mean Oladipo and Rivers are really the only 2 guys I would rely on to pressure full court. We have no great post defenders either. Next season with a healthier/stronger creek, an intelligent post defender in Zeller and Oladipo I think we will be much improved defensively. Great? No. Better, yes. Too little depth/skill in the paint and with the need to have scoring from Hulls/Jones/Roth we just cannot afford to play our best defenders at all times. Zeller will have a big impact on changing the mold of this team. His stats may not be great early in his career, but he will really allow us to be a stronger defensive and offensive unit. Spreading the floor, setting legal screens, rebounding, taking away potential double teams of Watford. He will really help out our current players.

As for when I think we will see that change, 2012 would be my guess. It is pretty obvious that between Yogi, Jurkin, Hanner, and Buss coming in we will have all the depth and athleticism needed to pressure the ball all game.
Creek/Roth/Jones need to have been developed into defenders at this point. It's not like those 3 are incapable of it.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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BTown11 Dec 29 2010, 03:32 AM Post #18
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I agree. I think Zeller will add a missing dynamic from day 1. a VERY high IQ guy who does it all. yes, please...
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dçamden03 Dec 29 2010, 03:33 AM Post #19
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BTown11
Dec 29 2010, 03:30 AM
when I was in HS we used to switch up defense all the damn time. man, 3-2 zone, matchup zone, 1-3-1, traps, presses, etc. used to give opponents fits.
Please don't compare HS basketball to major D1 basketball.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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BTown11 Dec 29 2010, 03:34 AM Post #20
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matt roth has played 1 collegiate season and some other injury plagued games. not exactly enough time to be a defensive master.
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jdm3 Dec 29 2010, 03:35 AM Post #21
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dçamden03
Dec 29 2010, 03:32 AM
jdm3
Dec 29 2010, 03:23 AM
dçamden03
Dec 29 2010, 02:56 AM
BTown11
Dec 28 2010, 11:59 PM
that's really not the point. you rotate as a team. when you play the zone you're supposed to play as though you're one. Elston doesn't communicate effectively enough inside the zone, but I think not rotating is a team problem.
Crean needs to figure out what he wants IU to be defensively. Is IU a zone program or man program? Being average at both is not good. Find a defense, teach it, and own it.
Seems to be the problem exactly. I think Crean wants us to be a man to man program, be able to have the depth at guard to be able to pressure the ball all the way up the court.

However, right now we do not have the athletes to be able to do this. I mean Oladipo and Rivers are really the only 2 guys I would rely on to pressure full court. We have no great post defenders either. Next season with a healthier/stronger creek, an intelligent post defender in Zeller and Oladipo I think we will be much improved defensively. Great? No. Better, yes. Too little depth/skill in the paint and with the need to have scoring from Hulls/Jones/Roth we just cannot afford to play our best defenders at all times. Zeller will have a big impact on changing the mold of this team. His stats may not be great early in his career, but he will really allow us to be a stronger defensive and offensive unit. Spreading the floor, setting legal screens, rebounding, taking away potential double teams of Watford. He will really help out our current players.

As for when I think we will see that change, 2012 would be my guess. It is pretty obvious that between Yogi, Jurkin, Hanner, and Buss coming in we will have all the depth and athleticism needed to pressure the ball all game.
Creek/Roth/Jones need to have been developed into defenders at this point. It's not like those 3 are incapable of it.
Why Creek/Roth? Both suffered season ending injuries? Not sure how to develop into a great defender on crutches.

I will agree with you on Jones though. There is not a person on our roster that has been on the floor more since Crean arrived. His defense and turnovers are still a big problem. However he has taken tremendous strides in his game since arriving, defense included. I wish he was better on D, but he is definitely improved from his fresh season I think.


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dçamden03 Dec 29 2010, 03:37 AM Post #22
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Dec 29 2010, 03:34 AM
matt roth has played 1 collegiate season and some other injury played games. not exactly enough time to be a defensive master.
He doesn't have to be a defensive master. You really don't need a defensive master, you need a team defensive philosophy that all the players can buy into and contribute to.

So far, Crean has shown no effort towards establishing any philosophy or standard.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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BTown11 Dec 29 2010, 03:40 AM Post #23
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meh. agree to disagree?

I think it's an execution problem not a coaching/personnel problem.
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jdm3 Dec 29 2010, 03:44 AM Post #24
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Not sure no effort is the right way to put it. I think they know what the identity is to be, a strong man to man team that can pressure the ball, force turnovers, and get out in transition.

Execution has been the issue, just not playing smart, not communicating, not clicking on rotations or switching on screens.

Can that fall back on the coach, i can see why in certain circumstances. However, we started 3 soph and 1 frosh last game. There is much to learn for this team still, physically and mentally they just arent there.


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dçamden03 Dec 29 2010, 03:49 AM Post #25
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I guess I've just never been a fan of changing defenses 3-4 times in a game. Its just not a good plan IMO and it doesn't teach a struggling team. That and it creates doubt. If your changing your defense within 5 minutes, then what were you doing in your prep/scouting of this game?
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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jdm3 Dec 29 2010, 03:56 AM Post #26
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I can see your point. I feel like if you are a solid man team, throwing the opponent off by going zone for a few possessions can prove to be a good strategic play, especially if they take their shooters off the court.

Switching all the time is not something I like doing. I agree that it does not allow you to master what you work on, or it differs from prep time possibly. I just think it may have something with wanting to teach principles of man to man, but at the same time having to work on zone. I mean there is just no way IU can play man against OSU. Crean is aware of that, as he should be. This I think has hampered our defensive growth as a team in some ways, not getting to really master something. But this season, zone is probably our best option, but next season I can see man being our best option. In a way it is a pickle. Crean said he may have been a bit stubborn in the way he subs and coaches, and said he may have to go to 5 guard lineups. Idk for sure, but I think the constant need to change defenses may be part of what he was hinting to


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dedicatedIUfan Dec 29 2010, 09:49 AM Post #27
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Defense was something that Crean was specifically working on for most of the season. If guys didn't play good defense, they weren't going to play. What I see wrong with our man to man defense is too much face guarding and losing sight of the ball. The best part of man to man is the help side defense and they aren't suppose to lose sight of the ball. In Bobby's man to man defense guys played areas or zones and they weren't suppose to lose sight of the ball. Crean's defensive principles looks like face guarding, playing the passing lanes and getting deflections. That is all good if you have the athletes who can overplay and recover, but he doesn't. Also, since this team is fairly young and not athletic overall, it would be good if Crean stuck with a defensive scheme and concentrate strickly on it. Once they have this down, then starting throwing other defensive schemes in, but only to confuse the opposition, not your own team.
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Mr Gray Dec 29 2010, 09:56 AM Post #28
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BTown11
Dec 28 2010, 04:38 PM
As bad as IU has looked the last three games, the problems they have are pretty fixable.
The problem I am starting to wrestle with is that Crean seems to not view the same "problems" as we do....and they seem to repeat themselves every year. I wanna love the guy, but am definitely doubting his ability to prepare this team for the Big10 season ahead.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Bobobinc Dec 29 2010, 10:16 AM Post #29
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It's looked to me as if he's trying to run a matchup zone at times which, ran well, can be very effective........but it's a difficult concept to master.

From what I've seen the last three games, the fundamentals aren't there consistently. Doesn't matter what defense you run if each player is not doing his job. Get your butt down, move your feet, keep your ball-me -man triangle, and work hard. Defense is almost all about effort, you have to want to be a good defensive player. There are times where some of these guys are just going through the motions on the defensive end.
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IUCOLTFAN Dec 29 2010, 02:06 PM Post #30
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dçamden03
Dec 29 2010, 03:37 AM
BTown11
Dec 29 2010, 03:34 AM
matt roth has played 1 collegiate season and some other injury played games. not exactly enough time to be a defensive master.
He doesn't have to be a defensive master. You really don't need a defensive master, you need a team defensive philosophy that all the players can buy into and contribute to.

So far, Crean has shown no effort towards establishing any philosophy or standard.
so you've seen all of IU's games this year?
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