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IU vs. NW Game Thread
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 9 2011, 06:56 PM (1,848 Views)
Bobobinc Jan 18 2011, 08:51 PM Post #166
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I'm not sure who was bitching about Crean not officially suspending Elston......if anyone. I never made a judgment on any sort of punishment, actually said a game was too much. My problem was with the lie and Crean buying into it to keep the trust of his players.

But since you brought it up, are you saying Crean was disciplining him? Do you know this? Elston isn't an every game starter from what I can tell. There are games he doesn't play that much. It wasn't a close game.

So if he was being disciplined, as you imply, why? Crean said publicly he believed Elston. No need to punish him if Crean accepted that it was an accident. Or was Crean saying one thing to the public and another to his player?
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dreachon Jan 18 2011, 10:05 PM Post #167
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Bobobinc
Jan 18 2011, 08:51 PM
I'm not sure who was bitching about Crean not officially suspending Elston......if anyone. I never made a judgment on any sort of punishment, actually said a game was too much. My problem was with the lie and Crean buying into it to keep the trust of his players.

But since you brought it up, are you saying Crean was disciplining him? Do you know this? Elston isn't an every game starter from what I can tell. There are games he doesn't play that much. It wasn't a close game.

So if he was being disciplined, as you imply, why? Crean said publicly he believed Elston. No need to punish him if Crean accepted that it was an accident. Or was Crean saying one thing to the public and another to his player?
I think he had started every game since Kentucky. Averaged 17 min/game over that span. I have no inside knowledge of whether or not he was disciplined. I do know that I said in this thread that I could see him not starting and/or limiting his minutes and whaddaya know. Could it have been coincidence? Yep. But the fact that it wasn't a close game (as you pointed out) gives further evidence that it was punishment. Elston couldn't even get mop up minutes.

So Crean backed up his player publicly and then made a statement by not playing Elston that said something to the effect of, "I know you weren't trying to trip him, but at the same time we can't have plays like that on the court."

Is that bad? Wrong? Unethical? I think he got his point across just fine. You said he pissed down his leg and blew his chance to do the right thing. I disagree.

Edited by dreachon, Jan 18 2011, 10:06 PM.
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BTown11 Jan 18 2011, 10:11 PM Post #168
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on a related note, Zack Novak intentionally tripped Mo Creek, and on more than one instance grabbed the jerseys of IU players (he got caught twice) in order to pull them away from the ball. No punishment with the exception of the two fouls called. Ed Hightower was even looking at the Novak trip which was directly in front of Beilein.
Death to Signatures.
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Bobobinc Jan 18 2011, 11:12 PM Post #169
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dreachon
Jan 18 2011, 10:05 PM
Bobobinc
Jan 18 2011, 08:51 PM
I'm not sure who was bitching about Crean not officially suspending Elston......if anyone. I never made a judgment on any sort of punishment, actually said a game was too much. My problem was with the lie and Crean buying into it to keep the trust of his players.

But since you brought it up, are you saying Crean was disciplining him? Do you know this? Elston isn't an every game starter from what I can tell. There are games he doesn't play that much. It wasn't a close game.

So if he was being disciplined, as you imply, why? Crean said publicly he believed Elston. No need to punish him if Crean accepted that it was an accident. Or was Crean saying one thing to the public and another to his player?
I think he had started every game since Kentucky. Averaged 17 min/game over that span. I have no inside knowledge of whether or not he was disciplined. I do know that I said in this thread that I could see him not starting and/or limiting his minutes and whaddaya know. Could it have been coincidence? Yep. But the fact that it wasn't a close game (as you pointed out) gives further evidence that it was punishment. Elston couldn't even get mop up minutes.

So Crean backed up his player publicly and then made a statement by not playing Elston that said something to the effect of, "I know you weren't trying to trip him, but at the same time we can't have plays like that on the court."

Is that bad? Wrong? Unethical? I think he got his point across just fine. You said he pissed down his leg and blew his chance to do the right thing. I disagree.

Or he could have sat to give others minutes, or Pritchard was having a good game, or a million other reasons.

"I know you weren't trying to trip him, but at the same time we can't have plays like that on the court."

I can't believe you actually typed that with a straight face...........or that you actually might think that makes one iota of sense.

What point did he get across ? " I believe you and I trust you but I'm going to punish you for an unintentional action."

A clear point is made.


If you're going to defend Crean at all costs at least make it sound logical.

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brumdog44 Jan 18 2011, 11:35 PM Post #170
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I'm not saying whether he punished Elston or not (I could give a crap whether he did or not...IMO, a first time that happens I wouldn't)...but the fact is that the only time he played fewer minutes was when he fouled out in seven minutes and the only other time he played the same number of minutes was a game in which he got hurt.
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dreachon Jan 18 2011, 11:42 PM Post #171
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Not sure why yer backlashing now. I said the same exact thing earlier in this thread and you didn't say shit about it. Maybe Elston wasn't trying to intentionally trip a player, but was thinking about impeding a player and his reaction was to stick out his foot. I would buy that argument. He intentionally stuck out his foot, but didn't have some sort of premeditated trip attack planned. I don't know whether that's true, but if Elston says it wasn't on purpose, that's the only explanation I can think of.

Then I said an appropriate form of punishment would be to not start him or to limit his minutes. And you totally agreed with this. And now that's EXACTLY what happened and you are backing up like there's no tomorrow.

I'm no defending Crean at all costs. I'm pointing out logical facts. Elston didn't start (when he had been starting) and played half the minutes he had been playing. It's possible that this was a form of punishment for the trip. A form of punishment that it seemed like most people on this board agreed with.

And yet you can't acknowledge this might be what happened and Crean handled the situation well. Doesn't sound like I'm praising him at all costs. Sounds like you are against him at all costs.
Edited by dreachon, Jan 18 2011, 11:43 PM.
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Bobobinc Jan 19 2011, 01:52 AM Post #172
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Hey, you are the one calling people out, looking for apologies, acting like people were calling for a suspension when they weren't and then acting like there was only one possible conclusion to draw from his limited playing time. Then comes the "I told you so."

I did agree with you earlier in that a suspension was not necessary and that it be handled internally. I also said I had a problem with the lie and Crean deferring to a player. I have no problem with an internal punishment if SOMEONE says something wrong was done. If I agreed to anything else then I was wrong and not paying attention.

The point is, do you often punish someone for accidents? When my 8 year old accidently knocks over his glass of milk at dinner, I accept that he didn't mean to do it. Then I guess I should send him to his room with no TV for the rest of the night.

I acknowledge freely that your version may be correct. That would mean Crean said one thing publicly and the exact opposite in private. You're OK with that, yes? Publicly it was an accident but privately it wasn't and Derek gets punished. That is what you're saying, right? So there is punishment but no crime? Crean is going to punish him for what........exactly......... an accident?

We won't STAND for any......uh.......accidents at Indiana !!!!!

If your theory is true, Crean played both sides of the fence perfectly and the followers fell in line.
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dçamden03 Jan 19 2011, 04:03 AM Post #173
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Jan 19 2011, 01:52 AM
Hey, you are the one calling people out, looking for apologies, acting like people were calling for a suspension when they weren't and then acting like there was only one possible conclusion to draw from his limited playing time. Then comes the "I told you so."

I did agree with you earlier in that a suspension was not necessary and that it be handled internally. I also said I had a problem with the lie and Crean deferring to a player. I have no problem with an internal punishment if SOMEONE says something wrong was done. If I agreed to anything else then I was wrong and not paying attention.

The point is, do you often punish someone for accidents? When my 8 year old accidently knocks over his glass of milk at dinner, I accept that he didn't mean to do it. Then I guess I should send him to his room with no TV for the rest of the night.

I acknowledge freely that your version may be correct. That would mean Crean said one thing publicly and the exact opposite in private. You're OK with that, yes? Publicly it was an accident but privately it wasn't and Derek gets punished. That is what you're saying, right? So there is punishment but no crime? Crean is going to punish him for what........exactly......... an accident?

We won't STAND for any......uh.......accidents at Indiana !!!!!

If your theory is true, Crean played both sides of the fence perfectly and the followers fell in line.
You da you da best, Bobo.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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dreachon Jan 19 2011, 09:05 AM Post #174
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Jan 19 2011, 01:52 AM
The point is, do you often punish someone for accidents? When my 8 year old accidently knocks over his glass of milk at dinner, I accept that he didn't mean to do it. Then I guess I should send him to his room with no TV for the rest of the night.

I acknowledge freely that your version may be correct. That would mean Crean said one thing publicly and the exact opposite in private. You're OK with that, yes? Publicly it was an accident but privately it wasn't and Derek gets punished. That is what you're saying, right? So there is punishment but no crime? Crean is going to punish him for what........exactly......... an accident?

We won't STAND for any......uh.......accidents at Indiana !!!!!

If your theory is true, Crean played both sides of the fence perfectly and the followers fell in line.
I'm calling people out because everyone was jumping on Crean's ass for not punishing Elston BEFORE Crean even had an opportunity to punish Elston in the next game. He lost points, it's not what Indiana basketball is about, he pissed down his leg, bla bla bla. Now PRESTO, it appears to be obvious that Crean handled the matter internally and a punishment was handed out. Yet no one came back to say they were glad he did something.

So Crean supported his player in public. Oh my. A coach backing his player up in the media when he knows his guy is in the wrong? Happens ALL THE TIME.

So here's what Bobo would have wanted Crean to say to the media.

"Well Derek told me he didn't intentionally trip the player. I saw the video, and I just said that's crap. Derek is obviously a liar and he will be punished for it."

Instead he backed him up publicly by saying he believed Derek when he said he wasn't trying to intentionally trip him. He still acknowledges that Derek's actions resulted in a dirty play that required some form of punishment.

Back to your 8 year old (can't believe we're using this analogy, but OK). If your 8 year old is horsing around and accidentally hurts his little sister, you might say "I know you weren't trying to hurt your sister, but I want you to sit down and think about whether that was a very smart thing to do. Then I want you to apologize to your sister."
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dreachon Jan 19 2011, 10:31 AM Post #175
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I just want to add that players and coaches supporting their teammates in the media is nearly a universal thing. It has ALWAYS been my opinion on the board that you can't trust what anyone says to the media. How appropriate that the Milton Bradley thread found it's way back to the top during this discussion. Another good example would be Mike Tomlin supporting James Harrison every time the guy makes an illegal hit. Crean supporting Elston in the media isn't new, and shouldn't be looked down upon, in my opinion. Actions speak louder than words and I know I was happy to see Elston limited in the next game.

Interestingly, I think time has played a major factor in this discussion. If we had played Michigan the very next night after NW, everyone would be on here talking about how happy they were that Elston didn't start and barely played. The discussion about punishment would have still been fresh. But people had all week to bash Crean and when the next game finally rolled around the discussion had ended and Elston's limited minutes are now just a coincidence.
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dedicatedIUfan Jan 19 2011, 12:34 PM Post #176
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Jan 19 2011, 09:05 AM

I'm calling people out because everyone was jumping on Crean's ass for not punishing Elston BEFORE Crean even had an opportunity to punish Elston in the next game. He lost points, it's not what Indiana basketball is about, he pissed down his leg, bla bla bla.
First off, not everyone was jumping on Crean's ass for this. I haven't once said anything against Crean on this. Second, I think I fit in the everyone category and it would be better if you just named the people that have stated it, instead of including everyone. Third, I think what is done is done, it is water under the bridge, and it is just time to move on and let it drop.
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dreachon Jan 19 2011, 12:39 PM Post #177
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dedicatedIUfan
Jan 19 2011, 12:34 PM
dreachon
Jan 19 2011, 09:05 AM

I'm calling people out because everyone was jumping on Crean's ass for not punishing Elston BEFORE Crean even had an opportunity to punish Elston in the next game. He lost points, it's not what Indiana basketball is about, he pissed down his leg, bla bla bla.
First off, not everyone was jumping on Crean's ass for this. I haven't once said anything against Crean on this. Second, I think I fit in the everyone category and it would be better if you just named the people that have stated it, instead of including everyone. Third, I think what is done is done, it is water under the bridge, and it is just time to move on and let it drop.
By everyone, I meant all those who were criticizing him for not doing anything. If you weren't one of them, then don't worry about it. I'm not going to go through an name names. The thread is right here. People know if they criticized Crean or not.
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