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Pujols vs. Fielder; Who's your man?
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 10 2011, 01:13 PM (941 Views)
dreachon Aug 11 2011, 03:03 PM Post #61
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obatskii
Aug 11 2011, 02:55 PM
dreachon
Aug 11 2011, 02:48 PM
So I guess you would take Curtis Granderson over Albert Pujols this year? Asdrubal Cabrera?

Stats from 1 year aren't how we judge players in baseball. Pujols isn't the best because he has the best stats every single year. He's the best because he's consistent and more than that, consistently great. He's the most feared hitter in baseball and the other parts of his game are just as solid. Your not going to convince me that Prince the is more desirable player, even just fro this year, just because his stats look better. I wouldn't have taken Josh Hamilton or Carlos Gonzalex over Pujols last year, and I'm not gonna take Fielder over him this year.
I get all that, but I thought we were discussing who's a better hitter so far this year? Pujols is the most feared and he is the best player in the game. Those statements aren't limited to the current season.

When we talk about who's having a better year this year, I couldn't give a rip about any other season besides the current one. THIS YEAR, Fielder is a better hitter.
To be honest, I'm not sure how we got into the discussion about who has the better stats this year. I mean I'm not sure of the point of simply looking at the numbers from 2/3 of a season and trying to come to any conclusion. I don't rate players in a vacuum like that. If we did, Curtis Granderson might be the best player in baseball and Joel Hanrahan might be the best closer. I don't think anyone would argue either of those things, but if you want me to say they have the best stats, they do. And Fielder has better stats the Pujols. I'm not about to argue he's the better player.
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obatskii Aug 11 2011, 03:19 PM Post #62
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dreachon
Aug 11 2011, 03:03 PM
obatskii
Aug 11 2011, 02:55 PM
dreachon
Aug 11 2011, 02:48 PM
So I guess you would take Curtis Granderson over Albert Pujols this year? Asdrubal Cabrera?

Stats from 1 year aren't how we judge players in baseball. Pujols isn't the best because he has the best stats every single year. He's the best because he's consistent and more than that, consistently great. He's the most feared hitter in baseball and the other parts of his game are just as solid. Your not going to convince me that Prince the is more desirable player, even just fro this year, just because his stats look better. I wouldn't have taken Josh Hamilton or Carlos Gonzalex over Pujols last year, and I'm not gonna take Fielder over him this year.
I get all that, but I thought we were discussing who's a better hitter so far this year? Pujols is the most feared and he is the best player in the game. Those statements aren't limited to the current season.

When we talk about who's having a better year this year, I couldn't give a rip about any other season besides the current one. THIS YEAR, Fielder is a better hitter.
To be honest, I'm not sure how we got into the discussion about who has the better stats this year. I mean I'm not sure of the point of simply looking at the numbers from 2/3 of a season and trying to come to any conclusion. I don't rate players in a vacuum like that. If we did, Curtis Granderson might be the best player in baseball and Joel Hanrahan might be the best closer. I don't think anyone would argue either of those things, but if you want me to say they have the best stats, they do. And Fielder has better stats the Pujols. I'm not about to argue he's the better player.
It started when I said Fielder is a better play this year and you retorted by saying no he isn't.

I feel like I should repeat this about every third post so Colt doesn't have a coronary; I've never argued that Fielder is a better player (outside of this year).
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hoosierinhogville Aug 11 2011, 03:52 PM Post #63
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When we talk about who's having a better year this year, I couldn't give a rip about any other season besides the current one. THIS YEAR, Fielder is a better hitter.
I would agree with that though I don't think it is big a difference than you seem to be making it.

And i think it isn't just the hitting that is causing the argument. You said a few posts back that "Fielder is CLEARLY the better player"

Then you throw out SB's and E's. When there is more to baserunning and fielding than those two stats. Anyone with eyes and a brain could tell you Pujols is a MUCH better base runner. And since you threw out WAR, Pujols has a solid lead in dWAR despite his time out of position at 3rd base.
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Mr Gray Aug 11 2011, 04:04 PM Post #64
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even with the size of their respective contracts, it still really isn't much of a discussion....regardless of the contract, if you have a chance to get Pujols, you take him....can't say the same for Prince. And that's coming from a Reds fan who dispises Big Al, and hopes daily that he gets caught juicing!
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hoosierinhogville Aug 11 2011, 05:01 PM Post #65
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Oh and another point Obat. You keep saying that his BA has declined 3 years in a row. Assuming that it declines this year (which is a safe bet) then yes it has, but you are kinds distorting things by saying that. The year prior to this supposed 3 year slide he hit .357 which is the second highest season total of his career. Of course he was going to come down from that. The year following that he hit .327 which is pretty much right in line with his career average so in other words it was an average season for him.
So the reality is that he has really only had two poor (by his standards) years. And he has been dealng with injures for the good part of the season this year.
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obatskii Aug 11 2011, 06:16 PM Post #66
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hoosierinhogville
Aug 11 2011, 03:52 PM
obatskii
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When we talk about who's having a better year this year, I couldn't give a rip about any other season besides the current one. THIS YEAR, Fielder is a better hitter.
I would agree with that though I don't think it is big a difference than you seem to be making it.

And i think it isn't just the hitting that is causing the argument. You said a few posts back that "Fielder is CLEARLY the better player"

Then you throw out SB's and E's. When there is more to baserunning and fielding than those two stats. Anyone with eyes and a brain could tell you Pujols is a MUCH better base runner. And since you threw out WAR, Pujols has a solid lead in dWAR despite his time out of position at 3rd base.
I may have exaggerated a bit by capitalizing clearly.

I know Albert is a much better baserunner. However, I don't think that's a very important facet for your 1B that hits 4th. Same with defense...he is clearly better, but that's not nearly as important to me as what a power guy does at the plate. IMO that doesn't make up for the difference that Prince has had at the plate this year.
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obatskii Aug 11 2011, 06:18 PM Post #67
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Aug 11 2011, 05:01 PM
Oh and another point Obat. You keep saying that his BA has declined 3 years in a row. Assuming that it declines this year (which is a safe bet) then yes it has, but you are kinds distorting things by saying that. The year prior to this supposed 3 year slide he hit .357 which is the second highest season total of his career. Of course he was going to come down from that. The year following that he hit .327 which is pretty much right in line with his career average so in other words it was an average season for him.
So the reality is that he has really only had two poor (by his standards) years. And he has been dealng with injures for the good part of the season this year.
I agree that he wasn't going to bat .357 every year. However, a trend is a trend regardless of where it starts at. I don't expect him to bat under .300 next year, but I didn't expect him to bat under .280 so far this year.

I also don't think the injuries have anything to do with it. As I pointed out, he was batting almost identical before the injuries set in.
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IUCOLTFAN Aug 12 2011, 03:20 PM Post #68
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obatskii
Aug 11 2011, 06:16 PM
hoosierinhogville
Aug 11 2011, 03:52 PM
obatskii
Aug 11 2011, 02:55 PM
When we talk about who's having a better year this year, I couldn't give a rip about any other season besides the current one. THIS YEAR, Fielder is a better hitter.
I would agree with that though I don't think it is big a difference than you seem to be making it.

And i think it isn't just the hitting that is causing the argument. You said a few posts back that "Fielder is CLEARLY the better player"

Then you throw out SB's and E's. When there is more to baserunning and fielding than those two stats. Anyone with eyes and a brain could tell you Pujols is a MUCH better base runner. And since you threw out WAR, Pujols has a solid lead in dWAR despite his time out of position at 3rd base.
I may have exaggerated a bit by capitalizing clearly.

I know Albert is a much better baserunner. However, I don't think that's a very important facet for your 1B that hits 4th. Same with defense...he is clearly better, but that's not nearly as important to me as what a power guy does at the plate. IMO that doesn't make up for the difference that Prince has had at the plate this year.
1) Albert doesn't hit 4th, he hits 3rd

2) He is more than just a power hitter hence the crazy lifetime average and amout of runs scored.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6619/career

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7290/career

*In 1662 games Albert has K'd 687 times

*In 954 games Fielder has K'd 746 times

*Career OBP is .421 compared to .389


I'll take Pujols during his worst year over Fielder during his best year anyday. Totally different players and Albert is FAR superior. Ask any manager who he'd rather have.
Edited by IUCOLTFAN, Aug 12 2011, 03:25 PM.
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obatskii Aug 12 2011, 03:33 PM Post #69
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I know he bats 3rd; Fielder bats 4th behind Braun.

Anyways, nobody is arguing who's had a better career. Even I'm not that stupid.
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dçamden03 Aug 13 2011, 07:55 AM Post #70
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Ugh, this whole discussion is sad. You take Pujols every time, regardless of the contract.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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brumdog44 Aug 13 2011, 10:21 PM Post #71
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You take Pujols first. If he doesn't sign, you ask him if he has a brother. If he doesn't, then you consider Fielder.

One huge thing you are missing is something that Bill James researched: players with old player skills (slow, immobile, large players) have skills that diminish much quicker than other players. Fielder is already a liability in the field and on the base paths (for his career, he is -35 runs in fielding and -27 on the basepaths according to fangraphs, which means he has cost his team 62 runs in non-batting categories when compared to an average player; Pujols, meanwhile, is plus 63 fielding and plus 20 running, putting him at plus 83).

While Pujols is four years older, he doesn't have a body that is four years older than Fielder. Prince is already dangerously close to being a player that HAS to be a designated hitter....it certainly wouldn't surprise me to see Pujols 'playing' younger at 38 than Fielder at 34.
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brumdog44 Aug 13 2011, 10:30 PM Post #72
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BTW, also note that Miller park is much hitter friendlier park.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/

Park factors are figuring by comparing how batters and pitchers do in a park compared to what they do elsewhere.

This season: Miller park is 6th in park factor runs scored; 12th in home runs; 5th in hits.
This season: Bush stadium is 26th in runs scored; 26th in home runs; 30th (dead last) in hits.

Last season: Miller park was 11th in runs; 6th in home runs; 16th in hits.
Last season: Bush stadium was 24th in runs scored; 26th in home runs; 23rd in hits.

Even saying Fielder has hit better than Pujols this year is debatable. If the home parks they played in were nuetral hitter's parks, assuming they play half their games there, then the numbers suggest Fielder would have 6 less hits than he has, 2 less doubles and 1 less home run. That would put him at a batting average of .294 and his slugging at .549. Pujols would have 9 more hits than he does, 2 more doubles, and 3 more home runs. That would put him at an average of .308 and a slugging of .586.
Edited by brumdog44, Aug 13 2011, 10:41 PM.
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IUCOLTFAN Aug 14 2011, 09:10 AM Post #73
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as soon as Obat admits to starting a ridiculous thread I guess we can stop owning him....

this thread = FAIL badly
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dçamden03 Aug 23 2011, 12:16 AM Post #74
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The further this season goes, the more this question becomes more and more ridiculous.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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dreachon Aug 23 2011, 07:00 AM Post #75
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Aug 23 2011, 12:16 AM
The further this season goes, the more this question becomes more and more ridiculous.
Pujols still may end up with a 300 average, which would be remarkable considering his start and the fact that he broke his wrist.
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