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Best comment thread ever?
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 1 2011, 12:14 AM (3,022 Views)
dreachon Nov 8 2011, 08:23 AM Post #76
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Yeah, it's the media love for him that drives me up the wall. Just like it did for Tyler Hansbrough. Jamarcus Russel's stats his first full year were really not that terrible for a new QB. 13 TDs, 8 INTS and a 77.1 QB rating. Completion percentage was 53.8%, higher than Tebow's. The difference here is that everyone could tell he wasn't the real deal and he got clobbered in the media and by fans. So why isn't it the same for Tebow? I agree with Brum and have said it before. Race does play a role in how the media references athletes.
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 12:01 PM Post #77
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I don't even want to bring the media into the argument here because of things already brought up like race. My stance, everyone ragging on him, is directed more towards the average fan. There might be a large following of fans that like him but I would say there is easily the same amount if not more that don't like him. Just look at almost everyone's opinion of him on this board (I don't like him because the media does). You can quit giving me stats on how poor he has been. I know that and am not arguing the fact. My question is based of off what you think will happen in the future if he turns out to be successful (like I have said, it's a big IF).

When it comes to the quarterback and team performance correlation, I simply said it is high. You giving me two examples on where it's not true doesn't disprove the fact. Just go back and look at the quarterbacks who have won the Super Bowl. You could probably count the lower level quarterbacks on one hand. I'm not saying it is absolute that if you have a good QB, you are going to win or if you have a poor QB you're going to lose but to say the correlation between the two isn't high is pretty silly imo.
Edited by blak_rob0, Nov 8 2011, 12:06 PM.
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dreachon Nov 8 2011, 12:04 PM Post #78
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I was one who said before that I actually think Tebow will end up being a pretty successful in the NFL. The problem with trying to disassociate the media from the average fan is that they're acting one in the same. Especially in Denver where fans were clamoring for Tebow and defending his terrible play to the death. I think that's the point. The fans and the media are both giving this guy a free pass and so the questions becomes why.
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 12:14 PM Post #79
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dreachon
Nov 8 2011, 12:04 PM
I was one who said before that I actually think Tebow will end up being a pretty successful in the NFL. The problem with trying to disassociate the media from the average fan is that they're acting one in the same. Especially in Denver where fans were clamoring for Tebow and defending his terrible play to the death. I think that's the point. The fans and the media are both giving this guy a free pass and so the questions becomes why.
Personally I think the reason for the media is because they view him as someone who people want to talk about. Brum has already stated that he initially sold the most jerseys of any rookie. Then, you have the fact that he had an extreme level of hype coming out of college. Another example is the original topic of this thread. ESPN has already showed us that if they find a story that interests a high number of people, they will run it into the ground.

When it comes to fans, as a Bronco fan myself, I think we just have nothing else to hold on to. Personally I think the problems in Denver are due to the running game and defense. The thing is nothing is being done about these problems so the fans ignore them and focus on the QB.
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brumdog44 Nov 8 2011, 07:39 PM Post #80
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blak_rob0
Nov 8 2011, 12:14 PM
dreachon
Nov 8 2011, 12:04 PM
I was one who said before that I actually think Tebow will end up being a pretty successful in the NFL. The problem with trying to disassociate the media from the average fan is that they're acting one in the same. Especially in Denver where fans were clamoring for Tebow and defending his terrible play to the death. I think that's the point. The fans and the media are both giving this guy a free pass and so the questions becomes why.
Personally I think the reason for the media is because they view him as someone who people want to talk about. Brum has already stated that he initially sold the most jerseys of any rookie. Then, you have the fact that he had an extreme level of hype coming out of college. Another example is the original topic of this thread. ESPN has already showed us that if they find a story that interests a high number of people, they will run it into the ground.

When it comes to fans, as a Bronco fan myself, I think we just have nothing else to hold on to. Personally I think the problems in Denver are due to the running game and defense. The thing is nothing is being done about these problems so the fans ignore them and focus on the QB.
The story out of Denver should be the resurgence of Willis MacGahee. And the fact is the guy had surgery on a broken hand about 12 days ago and gutted it out and ran for 160 yards in a game less than two weeks in a game when he simply shouldn't have been ready to play. But it's not.

I'm not sure why you are saying the Broncos running game is so poor....MacGahee and Moreno are a heck of a one/two IMO. is getting over 5 yards/carry and I still think Moreno has a nice career ahead of him. Even Lance Ball has looked good in limited action. The Broncos are fifth in the league in rushing and even if you want to eliminate all of Tebow's rushing yardage, they would be in the top half of the league.The defense, on the other hand...is a different issue.
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 07:49 PM Post #81
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brumdog44
Nov 8 2011, 07:39 PM
blak_rob0
Nov 8 2011, 12:14 PM
dreachon
Nov 8 2011, 12:04 PM
I was one who said before that I actually think Tebow will end up being a pretty successful in the NFL. The problem with trying to disassociate the media from the average fan is that they're acting one in the same. Especially in Denver where fans were clamoring for Tebow and defending his terrible play to the death. I think that's the point. The fans and the media are both giving this guy a free pass and so the questions becomes why.
Personally I think the reason for the media is because they view him as someone who people want to talk about. Brum has already stated that he initially sold the most jerseys of any rookie. Then, you have the fact that he had an extreme level of hype coming out of college. Another example is the original topic of this thread. ESPN has already showed us that if they find a story that interests a high number of people, they will run it into the ground.

When it comes to fans, as a Bronco fan myself, I think we just have nothing else to hold on to. Personally I think the problems in Denver are due to the running game and defense. The thing is nothing is being done about these problems so the fans ignore them and focus on the QB.
The story out of Denver should be the resurgence of Willis MacGahee. And the fact is the guy had surgery on a broken hand about 12 days ago and gutted it out and ran for 160 yards in a game less than two weeks in a game when he simply shouldn't have been ready to play. But it's not.

I'm not sure why you are saying the Broncos running game is so poor....MacGahee and Moreno are a heck of a one/two IMO. is getting over 5 yards/carry and I still think Moreno has a nice career ahead of him. Even Lance Ball has looked good in limited action. The Broncos are fifth in the league in rushing and even if you want to eliminate all of Tebow's rushing yardage, they would be in the top half of the league.The defense, on the other hand...is a different issue.
This has been the first year where the run game has turned around and I would say that could be due to the fact they have to rely so heavily on the run to win. I don't have time at the moment to look up stats to back that comment up though so feel free to rip my theory apart.
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brumdog44 Nov 8 2011, 08:13 PM Post #82
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Okay, thanks for the invite.
2010: 3.9 yards per carry, 97 yards per game. Really the only sub par year and the yards per carry were basically league average. In 2007 through 2009 every year resulted in a yard per carry of over of .5 higher than the league average.
2009: 4.8 yards per carry, 115 yards per game.
2008: 4.8 yards per carry, 116 yards per game.
2007: 4.6 yards per carry, 122 yards per game.
2006: 4.4 yards per carry, 135 yards per game.
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sirbrianwilson Nov 8 2011, 09:26 PM Post #83
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the broncos have ALWAYS been a run-first team. always...

br
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 09:45 PM Post #84
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Nov 8 2011, 09:26 PM
the broncos have ALWAYS been a run-first team. always...

br
I don't think I have ever stated anything different.
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 09:47 PM Post #85
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Nov 8 2011, 08:13 PM
Okay, thanks for the invite.
2010: 3.9 yards per carry, 97 yards per game. Really the only sub par year and the yards per carry were basically league average. In 2007 through 2009 every year resulted in a yard per carry of over of .5 higher than the league average.
2009: 4.8 yards per carry, 115 yards per game.
2008: 4.8 yards per carry, 116 yards per game.
2007: 4.6 yards per carry, 122 yards per game.
2006: 4.4 yards per carry, 135 yards per game.
Thanks for the stats. Appears they have been very consistent. I guess I was basing my opinion on the "big games" that I get to watch on TV. I have seen them multiple times in the past few years they have to turn to Orton to win games because their run game is going nowhere.
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IUCOLTFAN Nov 8 2011, 10:04 PM Post #86
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rob, never bring a knife to a gunfight...
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 10:28 PM Post #87
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Nov 8 2011, 10:04 PM
rob, never bring a knife to a gunfight...
Haha you must have a pretty weak opinion for a fight. I stated that I didn't have time to look at stats so was just going off of what I've seen. It was very interesting to see the stats Brum brought up so I'll take the "loss" on this one.
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BTown11 Nov 8 2011, 10:33 PM Post #88
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Nov 8 2011, 09:47 PM
brumdog44
Nov 8 2011, 08:13 PM
Okay, thanks for the invite.
2010: 3.9 yards per carry, 97 yards per game. Really the only sub par year and the yards per carry were basically league average. In 2007 through 2009 every year resulted in a yard per carry of over of .5 higher than the league average.
2009: 4.8 yards per carry, 115 yards per game.
2008: 4.8 yards per carry, 116 yards per game.
2007: 4.6 yards per carry, 122 yards per game.
2006: 4.4 yards per carry, 135 yards per game.
Thanks for the stats. Appears they have been very consistent. I guess I was basing my opinion on the "big games" that I get to watch on TV. I have seen them multiple times in the past few years they have to turn to Orton to win games because their run game is going nowhere.
you need NFL sunday ticket dude.
Death to Signatures.
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brumdog44 Nov 8 2011, 11:15 PM Post #89
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blak_rob0
Nov 8 2011, 09:47 PM
brumdog44
Nov 8 2011, 08:13 PM
Okay, thanks for the invite.
2010: 3.9 yards per carry, 97 yards per game. Really the only sub par year and the yards per carry were basically league average. In 2007 through 2009 every year resulted in a yard per carry of over of .5 higher than the league average.
2009: 4.8 yards per carry, 115 yards per game.
2008: 4.8 yards per carry, 116 yards per game.
2007: 4.6 yards per carry, 122 yards per game.
2006: 4.4 yards per carry, 135 yards per game.
Thanks for the stats. Appears they have been very consistent. I guess I was basing my opinion on the "big games" that I get to watch on TV. I have seen them multiple times in the past few years they have to turn to Orton to win games because their run game is going nowhere.
I think the bigger issue is that they simply wouldn't commit to the run. If you are getting 4 1/2 yards per crack for the season, you have to be running the ball more than 25 times. They going away from the run for no reason started in Cutler's last couple of years. They started have some running back injuries, but as we have learned about what Shanahan did and the offensive players that he left McDaniel is that the running game in Denver was not predicated on the running back...rather it was on the quick, smaller lineman that he had in place.

Denver's 2008 season is among my favorite all time in terms of stats.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/den/year/2008

There were tons of injuries to their backs...no back ran it more than 68 times all year and five backs ran it between 35 and 68 times. But regardless of who was back there, they were successful. All five backs put up 4.2 ypc or greater and the team put up 4.8 ypc. So why exactly did they they only run the ball 24 times per game and throw it 38 times? The defense was horrible, but this is a team that should have been in the playoffs...Cutler was an All-Pro that year and they had were getting nearly 5 yards a pop in the run game, but their refusal to run the ball put them 23rd in the league in time of possession and kept their porous defense on the field way too long. In the end, this was the team that blew a three game lead in the last three weeks.

In what was a microcosm of their season, during that 3 game losing streak, they ran the ball only 20 times per game.....but they averaged 133 yards on those runs. Imagine losing three straight games while getting almost 7 yards per run.
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blak_rob0 Nov 8 2011, 11:42 PM Post #90
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brumdog44
Nov 8 2011, 11:15 PM
blak_rob0
Nov 8 2011, 09:47 PM
brumdog44
Nov 8 2011, 08:13 PM
Okay, thanks for the invite.
2010: 3.9 yards per carry, 97 yards per game. Really the only sub par year and the yards per carry were basically league average. In 2007 through 2009 every year resulted in a yard per carry of over of .5 higher than the league average.
2009: 4.8 yards per carry, 115 yards per game.
2008: 4.8 yards per carry, 116 yards per game.
2007: 4.6 yards per carry, 122 yards per game.
2006: 4.4 yards per carry, 135 yards per game.
Thanks for the stats. Appears they have been very consistent. I guess I was basing my opinion on the "big games" that I get to watch on TV. I have seen them multiple times in the past few years they have to turn to Orton to win games because their run game is going nowhere.
I think the bigger issue is that they simply wouldn't commit to the run. If you are getting 4 1/2 yards per crack for the season, you have to be running the ball more than 25 times. They going away from the run for no reason started in Cutler's last couple of years. They started have some running back injuries, but as we have learned about what Shanahan did and the offensive players that he left McDaniel is that the running game in Denver was not predicated on the running back...rather it was on the quick, smaller lineman that he had in place.

Denver's 2008 season is among my favorite all time in terms of stats.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/den/year/2008

There were tons of injuries to their backs...no back ran it more than 68 times all year and five backs ran it between 35 and 68 times. But regardless of who was back there, they were successful. All five backs put up 4.2 ypc or greater and the team put up 4.8 ypc. So why exactly did they they only run the ball 24 times per game and throw it 38 times? The defense was horrible, but this is a team that should have been in the playoffs...Cutler was an All-Pro that year and they had were getting nearly 5 yards a pop in the run game, but their refusal to run the ball put them 23rd in the league in time of possession and kept their porous defense on the field way too long. In the end, this was the team that blew a three game lead in the last three weeks.

In what was a microcosm of their season, during that 3 game losing streak, they ran the ball only 20 times per game.....but they averaged 133 yards on those runs. Imagine losing three straight games while getting almost 7 yards per run.
Yeah watching that year was brutal. I thought the Broncos had it on lock. It was very neat to see the way that it seemed they could throw any average Joe in there and have him run for 1,000 yards though. I also agree the line has almost always been the key. I haven't kept up with the personnel on the line but I'm assuming it has changed to where they aren't able to do that now?

I agree whole heartedly that the main reason the run game is struggling because of their lack of dedication to it. That is more what I was trying to get at in my original statement. It seems like ever since Shanahan left they just don't have the same principles as a team any more, which I guess should be expected but is still sad.
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