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Welfare system
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 6 2011, 08:19 AM (440 Views)
Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM Post #61
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HoosierLars
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Dec 11 2011, 08:21 PM
HoosierLars
Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 10 2011, 08:56 AM
brumdog44
Dec 9 2011, 06:32 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 9 2011, 06:10 PM
brumdog44
Dec 9 2011, 04:19 PM
It's my opinion that people's health and lives being affected by impure foods would fall under freedom breaching as well, IMO.
you are not forced to eat the food....thus it is not a removal of a freedom.
you are not forced to have an abortion.
:facepalm: Please tell me you were kidding, or just weren't thinking when you said that brum. If you view abortion as murder, the victim isn't the person having the abortion brum....and the victim has death forced upon them.
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 13 2011, 01:31 PM Post #62
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Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
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Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 10 2011, 08:56 AM
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Dec 9 2011, 06:32 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 9 2011, 06:10 PM
brumdog44
Dec 9 2011, 04:19 PM
It's my opinion that people's health and lives being affected by impure foods would fall under freedom breaching as well, IMO.
you are not forced to eat the food....thus it is not a removal of a freedom.
you are not forced to have an abortion.
:facepalm: Please tell me you were kidding, or just weren't thinking when you said that brum. If you view abortion as murder, the victim isn't the person having the abortion brum....and the victim has death forced upon them.
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.

BTW, posting during a week day morning for me always means bad things...this time it was furnace motor going out. Gotta love home ownership.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 01:35 PM Post #63
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Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 10 2011, 08:56 AM
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Dec 9 2011, 06:32 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 9 2011, 06:10 PM
brumdog44
Dec 9 2011, 04:19 PM
It's my opinion that people's health and lives being affected by impure foods would fall under freedom breaching as well, IMO.
you are not forced to eat the food....thus it is not a removal of a freedom.
you are not forced to have an abortion.
:facepalm: Please tell me you were kidding, or just weren't thinking when you said that brum. If you view abortion as murder, the victim isn't the person having the abortion brum....and the victim has death forced upon them.
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 13 2011, 01:41 PM Post #64
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Mr Gray
Dec 9 2011, 06:10 PM
brumdog44
Dec 9 2011, 04:19 PM
It's my opinion that people's health and lives being affected by impure foods would fall under freedom breaching as well, IMO.
you are not forced to eat the food....thus it is not a removal of a freedom.
you are not forced to have an abortion.
:facepalm: Please tell me you were kidding, or just weren't thinking when you said that brum. If you view abortion as murder, the victim isn't the person having the abortion brum....and the victim has death forced upon them.
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 01:44 PM Post #65
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Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
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Dec 13 2011, 10:30 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 11 2011, 08:21 PM
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Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 10 2011, 08:56 AM
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Dec 9 2011, 06:32 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 9 2011, 06:10 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
you are not forced to have an abortion.
:facepalm: Please tell me you were kidding, or just weren't thinking when you said that brum. If you view abortion as murder, the victim isn't the person having the abortion brum....and the victim has death forced upon them.
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor Dec 13 2011, 01:58 PM Post #66
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Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
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Dec 13 2011, 10:30 AM
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Dec 11 2011, 08:21 PM
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Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM
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Dec 10 2011, 08:56 AM
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Dec 9 2011, 06:32 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
:facepalm: Please tell me you were kidding, or just weren't thinking when you said that brum. If you view abortion as murder, the victim isn't the person having the abortion brum....and the victim has death forced upon them.
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
Posted Image

"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 02:27 PM Post #67
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Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
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Dec 13 2011, 10:30 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 11 2011, 08:21 PM
HoosierLars
Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 10 2011, 08:56 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
stopping the potential pregnancy one millisecond before the sperm penetrates the egg = "good birth control"
one millisecond after = "murder"

Doesn't seem like much gray area there...
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor Dec 13 2011, 03:09 PM Post #68
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Dec 13 2011, 01:35 PM
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Dec 13 2011, 01:31 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
HoosierLars
Dec 13 2011, 10:30 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 11 2011, 08:21 PM
HoosierLars
Dec 10 2011, 11:02 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
but stopping in one millisecond prior to the 9th week (or whenever it is that you think it shouldn't be illegal) is OK, but one millisecond after is wrong? Seriously Lars...no matter where you set it, there will always be a "millisecond" prior and after.
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
Posted Image

"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 03:35 PM Post #69
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Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
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Dec 13 2011, 10:30 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 11 2011, 08:21 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Gray, you're helping me make my point. There's almost no difference between 9 weeks +- a day or two, or even a noticeable difference between seven and nine weeks.
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
normal conditions doesn't include a breathing machine. This person is not able to live outside of the uterus under normal conditions, yet nobody I know would advocate his/her murder because of it.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor Dec 13 2011, 03:51 PM Post #70
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Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM
HoosierLars
Dec 13 2011, 10:30 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
so then why did you choose 9 weeks as a time that we shouldn't abort? Is it really that much different than 10 weeks? What about the millisecond prior to 9 weeks?
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
normal conditions doesn't include a breathing machine. This person is not able to live outside of the uterus under normal conditions, yet nobody I know would advocate his/her murder because of it.
You do understand what a threshhold is, yes? They have passed the threshold. They lived without aid up to the point of needing a breathing machine.

If a child is born that requires life support, a parent can choose to withold medical treatment. Guess what? I do not view that as murder either.
Posted Image

"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 03:56 PM Post #71
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Dec 13 2011, 03:09 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 02:27 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 01:58 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:44 PM
brumdog44
Dec 13 2011, 01:41 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:35 PM
brumdog44
Dec 13 2011, 01:31 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 10:57 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I really don't want to get into the debate again -- nobody's mind is getting changed -- but I don't think Lars ever set it at nine weeks. You did, and he responded to it.
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
normal conditions doesn't include a breathing machine. This person is not able to live outside of the uterus under normal conditions, yet nobody I know would advocate his/her murder because of it.
You do understand what a threshhold is, yes? They have passed the threshold. They lived without aid up to the point of needing a breathing machine.

If a child is born that requires life support, a parent can choose to withold medical treatment. Guess what? I do not view that as murder either.
but are you OK with the parent cutting the child's head open and sucking it's brain out with a vacuum?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor Dec 13 2011, 04:00 PM Post #72
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Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 03:56 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 03:51 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 03:35 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 03:09 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 02:27 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 01:58 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:44 PM
brumdog44
Dec 13 2011, 01:41 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:35 PM
brumdog44
Dec 13 2011, 01:31 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Lars has set it at a date in the past, and I believe it was 9 weeks...it doesn't matter what the date that he set is...my premise is exactly the same...what changes in the millisecond prior and after his date regardless of when it is?
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
normal conditions doesn't include a breathing machine. This person is not able to live outside of the uterus under normal conditions, yet nobody I know would advocate his/her murder because of it.
You do understand what a threshhold is, yes? They have passed the threshold. They lived without aid up to the point of needing a breathing machine.

If a child is born that requires life support, a parent can choose to withold medical treatment. Guess what? I do not view that as murder either.
but are you OK with the parent cutting the child's head open and sucking it's brain out with a vacuum?
So this means you are ok with abortion as long as it is done humanely?

Okaaaaaaaaaay...
Posted Image

"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2011, 04:57 PM Post #73
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eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 04:00 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 03:56 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 03:51 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 03:35 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 03:09 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 02:27 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 01:58 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:44 PM
brumdog44
Dec 13 2011, 01:41 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:35 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
All laws are going to have to have some set value. Is a person really safe to drive if his BAC is .099 but if it reaches .1 he is a danger to society, just like driving 65 miles per hour is legal but 66 is over the line.

Anyway, I wouldn't use the millisecond argument to being with -- I understand your belief that live begins at conception. Whether I agree with that or not has nothing to do with your belief....the definition of conception is what it is.
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
normal conditions doesn't include a breathing machine. This person is not able to live outside of the uterus under normal conditions, yet nobody I know would advocate his/her murder because of it.
You do understand what a threshhold is, yes? They have passed the threshold. They lived without aid up to the point of needing a breathing machine.

If a child is born that requires life support, a parent can choose to withold medical treatment. Guess what? I do not view that as murder either.
but are you OK with the parent cutting the child's head open and sucking it's brain out with a vacuum?
So this means you are ok with abortion as long as it is done humanely?

Okaaaaaaaaaay...
yeah right...come on now eel, I know you are following me, but you know it leads down a path to your hypocrisy. Nature taking a life and a person intentionally ordering the taking of a life should be distinctively different to you.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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chops1221 Dec 13 2011, 05:12 PM Post #74
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Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 04:57 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 04:00 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 03:56 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 03:51 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 03:35 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 03:09 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 02:27 PM
eelbor
Dec 13 2011, 01:58 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 13 2011, 01:44 PM
brumdog44
Dec 13 2011, 01:41 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
agreed, but Lars always tries to make me sound stupid because I believe that "one millisecond after" it becomes a life, however my point is that if I am stupid, then everyone who believes that it becomes a life at some point (Lars included) must also be "stupid" because "one millisecond prior" it wasn't a life.
here is a definition

viable - having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.

Until then it is a parasitic life form.
so someone who relies on a breathing machine for survival is also not worthy of living any longer?
They have reached a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. They were viable.
normal conditions doesn't include a breathing machine. This person is not able to live outside of the uterus under normal conditions, yet nobody I know would advocate his/her murder because of it.
You do understand what a threshhold is, yes? They have passed the threshold. They lived without aid up to the point of needing a breathing machine.

If a child is born that requires life support, a parent can choose to withold medical treatment. Guess what? I do not view that as murder either.
but are you OK with the parent cutting the child's head open and sucking it's brain out with a vacuum?
So this means you are ok with abortion as long as it is done humanely?

Okaaaaaaaaaay...
yeah right...come on now eel, I know you are following me, but you know it leads down a path to your hypocrisy. Nature taking a life and a person intentionally ordering the taking of a life should be distinctively different to you.
No hypocrisy if you think it's not a life...

And no one is going to convince the other side to change their opinion on whether it is or not. I believe we've covered abortion enough to know that.
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eelbor Dec 13 2011, 05:12 PM Post #75
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And if you have not been able to change my mind in the last bazillionity-seven times we talked about this, what make you think I will change now? Biological life != Human life.
Posted Image

"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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