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Will Sheehey Injury?
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 21 2011, 09:20 PM (1,300 Views)
brumdog44 Dec 28 2011, 06:26 PM Post #76
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IUGrad2003
Dec 28 2011, 06:22 PM
tkeena33
Dec 28 2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, that stat is impressive, but I think it still has a lot to do with his game. He only catches the ball 21+ feet away from the basket, and he either shoots it or makes a quick pass. It's a lot easier to never turn the ball over when you play that kind of game. But still an impressive stat nonetheless.
I agree. You don't see Roth bringing the ball up against the press or driving to the bucket.
Same with John Diebler...but he averaged a turnover every 40 minutes, not 150.
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brumdog44 Dec 28 2011, 06:32 PM Post #77
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Rabjohn's tweeted that he had heard that it would not be a surprise if Jones played tonight....remains a game time decision.

Sorry I won't be able to join y'all for game thread, stuck with DVR again it looks like.
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blak_rob0 Dec 28 2011, 06:47 PM Post #78
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Dec 28 2011, 06:26 PM
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Dec 28 2011, 06:22 PM
tkeena33
Dec 28 2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, that stat is impressive, but I think it still has a lot to do with his game. He only catches the ball 21+ feet away from the basket, and he either shoots it or makes a quick pass. It's a lot easier to never turn the ball over when you play that kind of game. But still an impressive stat nonetheless.
I agree. You don't see Roth bringing the ball up against the press or driving to the bucket.
Same with John Diebler...but he averaged a turnover every 40 minutes, not 150.
Yeah Diebler and Roth are pretty much the same player....
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jnix13 Dec 28 2011, 07:16 PM Post #79
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Dec 28 2011, 06:32 PM
Rabjohn's tweeted that he had heard that it would not be a surprise if Jones played tonight....remains a game time decision.

Sorry I won't be able to join y'all for game thread, stuck with DVR again it looks like.
just heard on radio from crean that jones will most likely start and sheehey did not make the trip...staying back to get treatment. elston coming off the bench.
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brumdog44 Dec 28 2011, 11:49 PM Post #80
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Dec 28 2011, 06:47 PM
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Dec 28 2011, 06:26 PM
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Dec 28 2011, 06:22 PM
tkeena33
Dec 28 2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, that stat is impressive, but I think it still has a lot to do with his game. He only catches the ball 21+ feet away from the basket, and he either shoots it or makes a quick pass. It's a lot easier to never turn the ball over when you play that kind of game. But still an impressive stat nonetheless.
I agree. You don't see Roth bringing the ball up against the press or driving to the bucket.
Same with John Diebler...but he averaged a turnover every 40 minutes, not 150.
Yeah Diebler and Roth are pretty much the same player....
Yeah, because that's what I said......

How often did Diebler drive to the bucket or bring the ball up against the press? Not very often, because they had players better at doing it. The point is simple: Diebler was a better player who handled the ball basically the same amount of time that Roth did when they were in...and despite this, Diebler turned the ball over at a rate much greater (even though it was a very low rate).

The point is that Roth doesn't possess great court vision....a player not self aware of this will take risks with the ball that results in turnovers.

What I don't get is that the same fans that put down Jones for his 'recklessness' seem to be the same ones who put down Roth for his lack of it. Every player has a role, and Roth's role on offense isn't to drive and dish the ball; simply put, that's not in his game. His job is to shoot the three and not make silly mistakes. In that respect, he fits his role.
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dçamden03 Dec 29 2011, 08:42 AM Post #81
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It's amazing that Roth has hit 10 shots inside the 3 point line for his entire career.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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brumdog44 Dec 29 2011, 11:13 AM Post #82
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dçamden03
Dec 29 2011, 08:42 AM
It's amazing that Roth has hit 10 shots inside the 3 point line for his entire career.
Actually, it's 13...he's 13 of 29 from inside the arc for his career.

Not quite as strange as this one, though: Devan Bawinkel, who played a few years ago at Iowa:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/31666/devan-bawinkel

He played his freshman year at West Virginia, and took 44 total shots....11 inside the arc, of which 5 he made. At Iowa, he played two years....his junior year, he took 144 shots, but only five inside the arc (he hit one). His senior season, he took 84 shots -- NONE inside the arc. He only took six free throws in his career at Iowa, hitting three...so at Iowa, he scored 254 points...249 of which came on threes. That means that over 98% of his points scored at Iowa came on threes. Don't think there has ever been a player like that.

By comparison, Roth is a virtual post player...he's scored 350 points at IU, 288 from three point range, or a 'small' 82% of his points in comparison to Bawinkel's 98%.

blakrob, you had said Diebler's game isn't the same as Roth's which I never claimed...but Bawinkel's definitely was very similar (although he probably handled the ball even less than Roth, which is a strange thought). Bawinkel turned the ball over once every 60 minutes compared to Roth's once every 150 over the last two years.
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blak_rob0 Dec 30 2011, 03:26 AM Post #83
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brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 11:49 PM
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Dec 28 2011, 06:47 PM
brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 06:26 PM
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Dec 28 2011, 06:22 PM
tkeena33
Dec 28 2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, that stat is impressive, but I think it still has a lot to do with his game. He only catches the ball 21+ feet away from the basket, and he either shoots it or makes a quick pass. It's a lot easier to never turn the ball over when you play that kind of game. But still an impressive stat nonetheless.
I agree. You don't see Roth bringing the ball up against the press or driving to the bucket.
Same with John Diebler...but he averaged a turnover every 40 minutes, not 150.
Yeah Diebler and Roth are pretty much the same player....
Yeah, because that's what I said......

How often did Diebler drive to the bucket or bring the ball up against the press? Not very often, because they had players better at doing it. The point is simple: Diebler was a better player who handled the ball basically the same amount of time that Roth did when they were in...and despite this, Diebler turned the ball over at a rate much greater (even though it was a very low rate).

The point is that Roth doesn't possess great court vision....a player not self aware of this will take risks with the ball that results in turnovers.

What I don't get is that the same fans that put down Jones for his 'recklessness' seem to be the same ones who put down Roth for his lack of it. Every player has a role, and Roth's role on offense isn't to drive and dish the ball; simply put, that's not in his game. His job is to shoot the three and not make silly mistakes. In that respect, he fits his role.
Just the simple fact of how many more minutes and the more attention Diebler got from defenders makes your comparison pretty much useless. If Roth was anywhere close to having the same role as Diebler he would have more turnovers than what Diebler did. Roth has a very unique role and he fits it to a T but to give him much credit for not turning the ball over would be like giving a bad shooter credit for not taking very many bad shots.
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brumdog44 Dec 30 2011, 09:02 AM Post #84
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#1 -- Diebler gets the looks that he did in large part because the defense focused elsewhere.....he NEVER finished a season being any better than Ohio State's third leading scorer.

#2 -- check out their freshman seasons....Matt Roth most definitely drew more defense attention because: a. IU was horrible and had no offense -- it's how Roth had 27 in a game that year; and b. Diebler couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (he shot 29% from three). Yet Roth averaged a turnover every 40 minutes and Diebler averaged one every 17.

Yet you extrapolate Roth having more turnovers -- quadrupling his rate of turnovers?

The analogy of a bad shooter doesn't hold water. You can't accidentally take a bad shot, yet players make unforced turnovers. Hell, put Tom Pritchard on the court for three hundred minutes and he'll turn it over more than two times in three hundred minutes without ever touching the ball through offensive fouls and three second calls.

So how many times would he have to turn it over before you consider it impressive? No times in 300 minutes?

Roth is not the only player in the history of basketball to be a decent shooter and nothing else.....yet I haven't heard of any player with his turnover rate. Again, if you don't think it's impressive then you should be able to find someone with the same or better rate.
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blak_rob0 Dec 30 2011, 03:04 PM Post #85
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Dec 30 2011, 09:02 AM
#1 -- Diebler gets the looks that he did in large part because the defense focused elsewhere.....he NEVER finished a season being any better than Ohio State's third leading scorer.

#2 -- check out their freshman seasons....Matt Roth most definitely drew more defense attention because: a. IU was horrible and had no offense -- it's how Roth had 27 in a game that year; and b. Diebler couldn't hit the broad side of a barn (he shot 29% from three). Yet Roth averaged a turnover every 40 minutes and Diebler averaged one every 17.

Yet you extrapolate Roth having more turnovers -- quadrupling his rate of turnovers?

The analogy of a bad shooter doesn't hold water. You can't accidentally take a bad shot, yet players make unforced turnovers. Hell, put Tom Pritchard on the court for three hundred minutes and he'll turn it over more than two times in three hundred minutes without ever touching the ball through offensive fouls and three second calls.

So how many times would he have to turn it over before you consider it impressive? No times in 300 minutes?

Roth is not the only player in the history of basketball to be a decent shooter and nothing else.....yet I haven't heard of any player with his turnover rate. Again, if you don't think it's impressive then you should be able to find someone with the same or better rate.
You can't use one year of their careers to prove the point. Especially in which that year is probably the closest their roles ever were to each other. Also I did a little research on the stats and am not seeing where you're getting the 150 minutes per TO number. Roth has played 986.4 minutes in his career and he has 20 turnovers. With those numbers I'm getting 49.32 minutes per turnover. http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/indiana/matt-roth

I don't see how the bad shot comparison doesn't hold water. A bad shot is pretty much the same thing as a turnover. The possession is ultimately wasted and the defense is usually out of position.

I really don't care to try and find another player like Roth. He can have his awesome turnover rate. It has lead him to the sweet stat line of 4.9 ppg, .3 apg, and .9 rpg.
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brumdog44 Dec 30 2011, 05:18 PM Post #86
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brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 02:23 PM
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Dec 28 2011, 11:15 AM
brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 10:05 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 28 2011, 09:52 AM
Bob Knight always says that you don't worry about injuries, that's why you have 12 players.
We have ten plus Moore and Pritchard.
you put them below Barnet and Roth?
Matt Roth does two things well: shoot from range and he_never_turns_the_ball_over. He's not a good defensive player, but Moore can be abused by an even averaged sized or speed guard. Tom Pritchard? C'mon....

If you aren't amazed by Roth's two turnovers in 309 minutes in the last two years, then please find me ANY player at ANY position who has turned it over less. The whole 'he doesn't handle the ball much' doesn't hold water when you are talking about a player turning it over once every 150 minutes.
Rob, you are jumping into the middle of a conversation without reading the posts. My statement was that 'if you aren't amazed by Roth's two turnovers in 309 minutes in the last two years, then please find me ANY player at ANY position who has turned it over less'. The point was that he has he turned into a player who knows his role. The freshman year comparison was used to show that even in his worst case scenario (horrible players around him AND he was counted on to score), he didn't turn it over as much as Diebler did in the same circumstances even though as a freshman Diebler drew less attention.

In terms of his stat line, read what I said, which was that he did two things well: he has nice range and he doesn't turn the ball over. Also read back in the comments and you'll see that was in response to aaron, who would put Roth behind Moore and Barnett, which has more to do with the fact that Roth stole his brother's girlfriend than it has to with actual ability on the court.

People have offered up reasons as to why his turnover rate is low....but NOTHING can account for the rate he has had over the last two years, which means he hasn't had wasted possessions due to stupid turnovers. I'm a stat guy, and I've been looking for college players who have had a one or two season period where they've turned it over at a smaller rate -- even played as little as he has -- and I simply can't find anyone comparable. If you have a guy who is going to be the third, fourth, or fifth guy off of the bench (Roth is ninth in minutes, just ahead of Abell), what better guy than someone who is doing what he does?
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Rockspeed Dec 30 2011, 05:41 PM Post #87
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The real question is still this: Does Sheehey play against OSU this Saturday?
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dedicatedIUfan Dec 30 2011, 10:17 PM Post #88
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Dec 30 2011, 05:41 PM
The real question is still this: Does Sheehey play against OSU this Saturday?
Still day-to-day according to Crean's statement I read on ITH. My bet is he doesn't play.
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blak_rob0 Dec 30 2011, 11:46 PM Post #89
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brumdog44
Dec 30 2011, 05:18 PM
brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 02:23 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 28 2011, 11:15 AM
brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 10:05 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 28 2011, 09:52 AM
Bob Knight always says that you don't worry about injuries, that's why you have 12 players.
We have ten plus Moore and Pritchard.
you put them below Barnet and Roth?
Matt Roth does two things well: shoot from range and he_never_turns_the_ball_over. He's not a good defensive player, but Moore can be abused by an even averaged sized or speed guard. Tom Pritchard? C'mon....

If you aren't amazed by Roth's two turnovers in 309 minutes in the last two years, then please find me ANY player at ANY position who has turned it over less. The whole 'he doesn't handle the ball much' doesn't hold water when you are talking about a player turning it over once every 150 minutes.
Rob, you are jumping into the middle of a conversation without reading the posts. My statement was that 'if you aren't amazed by Roth's two turnovers in 309 minutes in the last two years, then please find me ANY player at ANY position who has turned it over less'. The point was that he has he turned into a player who knows his role. The freshman year comparison was used to show that even in his worst case scenario (horrible players around him AND he was counted on to score), he didn't turn it over as much as Diebler did in the same circumstances even though as a freshman Diebler drew less attention.

In terms of his stat line, read what I said, which was that he did two things well: he has nice range and he doesn't turn the ball over. Also read back in the comments and you'll see that was in response to aaron, who would put Roth behind Moore and Barnett, which has more to do with the fact that Roth stole his brother's girlfriend than it has to with actual ability on the court.

People have offered up reasons as to why his turnover rate is low....but NOTHING can account for the rate he has had over the last two years, which means he hasn't had wasted possessions due to stupid turnovers. I'm a stat guy, and I've been looking for college players who have had a one or two season period where they've turned it over at a smaller rate -- even played as little as he has -- and I simply can't find anyone comparable. If you have a guy who is going to be the third, fourth, or fifth guy off of the bench (Roth is ninth in minutes, just ahead of Abell), what better guy than someone who is doing what he does?
If all you are arguing is that Roth knows his role well enough that he should play over pritch and Moore then congrats you win this one. I don't really care to argue about Roth and how there is not a player out there like him. There aren't many players like him because not many other players if any other player has the role to shoot or play hot potato. If you think that's all Diebler did then you're crazy. They may have a similar role at times but on a small scale basis.
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panchen_lama Dec 31 2011, 12:08 AM Post #90
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blak_rob0
Dec 30 2011, 11:46 PM
brumdog44
Dec 30 2011, 05:18 PM
brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 02:23 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 28 2011, 11:15 AM
brumdog44
Dec 28 2011, 10:05 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 28 2011, 09:52 AM
Bob Knight always says that you don't worry about injuries, that's why you have 12 players.
We have ten plus Moore and Pritchard.
you put them below Barnet and Roth?
Matt Roth does two things well: shoot from range and he_never_turns_the_ball_over. He's not a good defensive player, but Moore can be abused by an even averaged sized or speed guard. Tom Pritchard? C'mon....

If you aren't amazed by Roth's two turnovers in 309 minutes in the last two years, then please find me ANY player at ANY position who has turned it over less. The whole 'he doesn't handle the ball much' doesn't hold water when you are talking about a player turning it over once every 150 minutes.
Rob, you are jumping into the middle of a conversation without reading the posts. My statement was that 'if you aren't amazed by Roth's two turnovers in 309 minutes in the last two years, then please find me ANY player at ANY position who has turned it over less'. The point was that he has he turned into a player who knows his role. The freshman year comparison was used to show that even in his worst case scenario (horrible players around him AND he was counted on to score), he didn't turn it over as much as Diebler did in the same circumstances even though as a freshman Diebler drew less attention.

In terms of his stat line, read what I said, which was that he did two things well: he has nice range and he doesn't turn the ball over. Also read back in the comments and you'll see that was in response to aaron, who would put Roth behind Moore and Barnett, which has more to do with the fact that Roth stole his brother's girlfriend than it has to with actual ability on the court.

People have offered up reasons as to why his turnover rate is low....but NOTHING can account for the rate he has had over the last two years, which means he hasn't had wasted possessions due to stupid turnovers. I'm a stat guy, and I've been looking for college players who have had a one or two season period where they've turned it over at a smaller rate -- even played as little as he has -- and I simply can't find anyone comparable. If you have a guy who is going to be the third, fourth, or fifth guy off of the bench (Roth is ninth in minutes, just ahead of Abell), what better guy than someone who is doing what he does?
If all you are arguing is that Roth knows his role well enough that he should play over pritch and Moore then congrats you win this one. I don't really care to argue about Roth and how there is not a player out there like him. There aren't many players like him because not many other players if any other player has the role to shoot or play hot potato. If you think that's all Diebler did then you're crazy. They may have a similar role at times but on a small scale basis.
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