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Getting the ball to Zeller
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 6 2012, 08:42 PM (172 Views)
Mr Gray Jan 6 2012, 08:42 PM Post #1
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OK guys, I haven't just "watched" every game this year, but I truly have studied them, as I am also a basketball coach, so I tend to watch games that way to begin with. It occurred to me during the MSU game, and reaffirmed it last night that we have a huge problem when any defender fronts Zeller. MSU did it virtually the entire game, and UM did it during the stretch in the last 8 minutes when they tied the game up.

We simply seem unwilling to throw the lob, and at the same time the defender is actually extending the defense high in the post creating a problem for anything off the dribble from our guards. I'm not sure if any of you had noticed or discussed this already, but I am hoping that this is something we are working on in practice, because I am certain that opposing coaches are taking notice, and it's pretty clear that we struggle over 40 minutes when we can't work the ball through Zeller....just an observation I guess.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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BTown11 Jan 6 2012, 08:55 PM Post #2
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Personally I'm not a big fan of throwing lobs into the post. You open yourself into a world of turnovers and other issues; not to mention that they typically disorient the post-player from the basket. I'd prefer the guard dribble penetrate, draw the guy of the big man, and then dish.

But that's just me.
Death to Signatures.
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Mr Gray Jan 6 2012, 09:13 PM Post #3
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BTown11
Jan 6 2012, 08:55 PM
Personally I'm not a big fan of throwing lobs into the post. You open yourself into a world of turnovers and other issues; not to mention that they typically disorient the post-player from the basket. I'd prefer the guard dribble penetrate, draw the guy of the big man, and then dish.

But that's just me.
I would agree with that a lot of times, but in the case of MSU, anytime we drove to the middle, which would be the optimal place to draw and dish from, they sent their wing/baseline defender in to block the route of the pass, and that really didn't leave us open on the baseline for a shot, because that is such a difficult place to pass from (middle of the post) due to the fact that there are usually a ton of arms and hands surrounding you.

I think you have to learn to throw the lob a few times to at least create the possibility that you may throw it, which should draw a weakside defender in earlier, where you can throw a cross court pass from a much more optimal spot.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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hoosier64 Jan 6 2012, 10:34 PM Post #4
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I think it will all eventually fall into place. Hell, last night Watford had two assists feeding Zeller. Normally he would have forced the shot up even though he was double teamed. It's gonna take some time to get used to. I mean, how long has it been since IU had a big with the talent that Zeller has? It's coming around.
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Mr Gray Jan 6 2012, 11:15 PM Post #5
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Jan 6 2012, 10:34 PM
I think it will all eventually fall into place. Hell, last night Watford had two assists feeding Zeller. Normally he would have forced the shot up even though he was double teamed. It's gonna take some time to get used to. I mean, how long has it been since IU had a big with the talent that Zeller has? It's coming around.
I'm actually not sure that IU has ever had a big with Zeller's talent, but the last good big that we had was DJ
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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tkeena33 Jan 7 2012, 12:52 AM Post #6
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I didn't rewatch the UM game, but from what I remember, Zeller was really battling for position and you could tell the team knew they were supposed to get him the ball, but it didn't really seem like he was wanting the lob over the top. It seemed like every time he got fronted he'd go back and try to battle for better position. Besides Zeller not really sealing and calling for the ball, our other guys seemed scared to turn it over, which is probably more of a good thing than bad. That being said, I'll rarely complain about a turnover when we're trying to work the ball in to Zeller.
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IUGrad2003 Jan 7 2012, 10:07 AM Post #7
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I think one of IU's weaknesses this year is Hulls' inability to feed the post. He turns it over way too much trying to get the ball to Zeller.
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geepergibson Jan 7 2012, 08:32 PM Post #8
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I think Zeller needs to flash to the ball from the weak side and call for the ball more. Once you receive the entry pass, look opposite or square to the basket in triple threat position. IMO
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dçamden03 Jan 7 2012, 10:05 PM Post #9
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I haven't watched as closely as you guys obviously, but it seems to me that the offense becomes stagnant sometimes because its trying so hard to look for Zeller when its not there. Plus, it seems he gets most of his points in transition, on drop offs from penetration, and put backs.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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Jazen Jan 8 2012, 12:00 AM Post #10
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dçamden03
Jan 7 2012, 10:05 PM
I haven't watched as closely as you guys obviously, but it seems to me that the offense becomes stagnant sometimes because its trying so hard to look for Zeller when its not there. Plus, it seems he gets most of his points in transition, on drop offs from penetration, and put backs.
Well said, and for not paying attention, you hit the nail on the head.

IMO, this is the reason Watford has been able to take up the slack. We've been successful with some slash/passes to Zeller in the post, but of course that's not as fundamentally sound as a high/low game with a legit big man.

Lobbing into the post is most definitely not our strong point, but then again, the guys on the floor haven't had anyone to lob it to. I know someone mentioned before that "lobbing the ball into the post" wasn't exactly necessary, but I disagree, it's monumental in establishing an inside/outside game.

I wanna see Zeller start taking a few pops from 8-10 feet away, I'm confident he can do it, and if that doesn't shake up the defense, I'm not sure what would.
Edited by Jazen, Jan 8 2012, 12:03 AM.
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brumdog44 Jan 8 2012, 01:26 AM Post #11
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There were times against Michigan where they had him popping out as high as the three point line and getting involved in the motion game. Honestly, although the announcers didn't like it, I thought it was a good idea to try and take advantage of his foot speed against an opponent's big man.....looking to get him open on the move rather than a simple post up.
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BTown11 Jan 8 2012, 01:30 AM Post #12
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brumdog44
Jan 8 2012, 01:26 AM
There were times against Michigan where they had him popping out as high as the three point line and getting involved in the motion game. Honestly, although the announcers didn't like it, I thought it was a good idea to try and take advantage of his foot speed against an opponent's big man.....looking to get him open on the move rather than a simple post up.
i noticed that too. it brought me back to the OSU game where Zeller took Sullinger off the bounce and to the rim. Guys like Sullinger aren't used to guarding guys that can do that. I think we should do it more often, if nothing else.
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tkeena33 Jan 8 2012, 10:37 AM Post #13
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BTown11
Jan 8 2012, 01:30 AM
brumdog44
Jan 8 2012, 01:26 AM
There were times against Michigan where they had him popping out as high as the three point line and getting involved in the motion game. Honestly, although the announcers didn't like it, I thought it was a good idea to try and take advantage of his foot speed against an opponent's big man.....looking to get him open on the move rather than a simple post up.
i noticed that too. it brought me back to the OSU game where Zeller took Sullinger off the bounce and to the rim. Guys like Sullinger aren't used to guarding guys that can do that. I think we should do it more often, if nothing else.
Zeller actually handles the ball well for a big man and has shown (e.g. against Sullinger) he can score facing the basket and with his back to the basket. I wouldn't mind seeing him catch and face more often from 15 feet or so. I know the kid can shoot it, he just hasn't much this year. I'd like to see him start stretching his game out a little bit, if nothing else just to get him more touches and opportunities for easy baskets. If he can shoot it at a high percentage it would help get him a lot more scoring opportunities. It would be very difficult to guard with his height and ability to drive as well. Not many 7 footers out there who could challenge a 15 foot jumper and recover to defend Zeller on the drive. DJ White made a living off the 12-15 footer at IU. Tim Duncan made a HOF career out of it in San Antonio.
Edited by tkeena33, Jan 8 2012, 10:39 AM.
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hoosier64 Jan 8 2012, 05:23 PM Post #14
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Mr Gray
Jan 6 2012, 11:15 PM
hoosier64
Jan 6 2012, 10:34 PM
I think it will all eventually fall into place. Hell, last night Watford had two assists feeding Zeller. Normally he would have forced the shot up even though he was double teamed. It's gonna take some time to get used to. I mean, how long has it been since IU had a big with the talent that Zeller has? It's coming around.
I'm actually not sure that IU has ever had a big with Zeller's talent, but the last good big that we had was DJ
I was thinkin' Benson.......
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