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Something I believe we will all agree on
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 11 2012, 11:07 PM (105 Views)
brumdog44 Jan 11 2012, 11:07 PM Post #1
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Regardless of how you feel about the issue, I think you will agree the Indiana government has no damn business legislating it.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/indiana/indiana-legislators-consider-basketball-tourney-bill/article_d5b5df8a-6d22-53ab-9178-306881b9efeb.html
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Mr Gray Jan 12 2012, 08:43 AM Post #2
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hmm....I saw a post from a state rep on facebook a week ago or so explaining why this is a state issue....hadn't really given it much thought. Who made the decision in 96' to change it to the class system?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jan 12 2012, 06:45 PM Post #3
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Mr Gray
Jan 12 2012, 08:43 AM
hmm....I saw a post from a state rep on facebook a week ago or so explaining why this is a state issue....hadn't really given it much thought. Who made the decision in 96' to change it to the class system?
IHSAA, which oversees the tournament, with a LOT of input from member schools. All member schools were polled, and I believe that it was in the mid 80%s for school in favor of going to a multi-class tournament.

The whole argument about attendance drop is a silly one.....the #1 factor in the attendance drop is that smaller schools are playing longer. Before you'd probably see 14 or 15 huge schools playing in the round of 16 in the semi-state games; now the round of 16 will consist of 4 four A schools, 4 three A schools, 4 two A, and 4 one A schools.

The 500 pound gorilla in the room, though, is that private schools bringing in recruits hurt the whole reason to go to class basketball anyway.
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BTown11 Jan 16 2012, 12:40 AM Post #4
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brumdog44
Jan 12 2012, 06:45 PM
Mr Gray
Jan 12 2012, 08:43 AM
hmm....I saw a post from a state rep on facebook a week ago or so explaining why this is a state issue....hadn't really given it much thought. Who made the decision in 96' to change it to the class system?
IHSAA, which oversees the tournament, with a LOT of input from member schools. All member schools were polled, and I believe that it was in the mid 80%s for school in favor of going to a multi-class tournament.

The whole argument about attendance drop is a silly one.....the #1 factor in the attendance drop is that smaller schools are playing longer. Before you'd probably see 14 or 15 huge schools playing in the round of 16 in the semi-state games; now the round of 16 will consist of 4 four A schools, 4 three A schools, 4 two A, and 4 one A schools.

The 500 pound gorilla in the room, though, is that private schools bringing in recruits hurt the whole reason to go to class basketball anyway.
while I agree with everything you've said, 4A isn't really affected by private school recruiting. that class has been dominated by the metro Indy schools (LN, NC, Pike, etc). the 4A private schools would struggle to stay above water in a conference like the MIC. Actually the public schools in Indy recruit better than private.


doesn't change the validity of your argument though.
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Mr Gray Jan 16 2012, 09:06 AM Post #5
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brum, here is the direct quote from the guy I was talking about on this thread, regarding his reasoning for having class basketball be a state legislature issue.

I respectfully disagree with those who say this isn’t the sort of issue that our legislature should take up. I think it’s exactly an issue for consideration and debate by the General Assembly.

Article 8 of the Indiana Constitution vests the General Assembly with responsibility over education. Like it or not, interscholastic athletics is an integral part of our education system, and has been for some time.

The issue also touches on other important concepts in addition to education, including our state identity, community interests, and culture and heritage. I still remember a chapter of “Indiana History” in grade school dedicated to Indiana high school basketball.

To those who say that our legislature “doesn’t have time” for this issue. I assure you, things don’t fail in the legislature for lack of time, review, or study. Things fail for lack of agreement. Last year 1,204 bills were filed. 231 of those bills made it to the Governor. There’s plenty of time for this issue to be considered.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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boilergrad01 Jan 16 2012, 09:16 AM Post #6
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You can never go back to what something once was


Many things have changed since the class system went into place. That being said sectional week was one of the best weeks of the school year.
Nothing beats an Astronaut
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Mr Gray Jan 16 2012, 09:19 AM Post #7
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boilergrad01
Jan 16 2012, 09:16 AM
You can never go back to what something once was
Bobby Plump disagrees
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jan 16 2012, 10:05 AM Post #8
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Mr Gray
Jan 16 2012, 09:19 AM
boilergrad01
Jan 16 2012, 09:16 AM
You can never go back to what something once was
Bobby Plump disagrees
Bobby Plump still sleeps in his fucking uniform.
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Mr Gray Jan 16 2012, 10:13 AM Post #9
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brumdog44
Jan 16 2012, 10:05 AM
Mr Gray
Jan 16 2012, 09:19 AM
boilergrad01
Jan 16 2012, 09:16 AM
You can never go back to what something once was
Bobby Plump disagrees
Bobby Plump still sleeps in his fucking uniform.
I would too. I just got a signed copy of his book for Xmas...very cool gift, and so far I really like the book.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jan 16 2012, 10:24 AM Post #10
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BTown11
Jan 16 2012, 12:40 AM
brumdog44
Jan 12 2012, 06:45 PM
Mr Gray
Jan 12 2012, 08:43 AM
hmm....I saw a post from a state rep on facebook a week ago or so explaining why this is a state issue....hadn't really given it much thought. Who made the decision in 96' to change it to the class system?
IHSAA, which oversees the tournament, with a LOT of input from member schools. All member schools were polled, and I believe that it was in the mid 80%s for school in favor of going to a multi-class tournament.

The whole argument about attendance drop is a silly one.....the #1 factor in the attendance drop is that smaller schools are playing longer. Before you'd probably see 14 or 15 huge schools playing in the round of 16 in the semi-state games; now the round of 16 will consist of 4 four A schools, 4 three A schools, 4 two A, and 4 one A schools.

The 500 pound gorilla in the room, though, is that private schools bringing in recruits hurt the whole reason to go to class basketball anyway.
while I agree with everything you've said, 4A isn't really affected by private school recruiting. that class has been dominated by the metro Indy schools (LN, NC, Pike, etc). the 4A private schools would struggle to stay above water in a conference like the MIC. Actually the public schools in Indy recruit better than private.


doesn't change the validity of your argument though.
Here is the catch, though: what private schools are 4A?

I know in football -- which has five divisions -- not a single school is private. I think that holds true for the 4A division in basketball as well.

4A is a separate best as well because of how different the size of the schools are in that division. I believe that the 3A division that schools vary in population from around 800 to 1150....but in 4A, it varies from 1150 to over 3000. Even in the top division, I don't recall schools in the under 2000 population being in the title game.
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brumdog44 Jan 16 2012, 10:29 AM Post #11
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boilergrad01
Jan 16 2012, 09:16 AM
You can never go back to what something once was


Many things have changed since the class system went into place. That being said sectional week was one of the best weeks of the school year.
Things have most definitely changed. I kept the scorebook for about ten years in the 1990s, starting back when it was a single class tournament. Every single year attendance was getting less and less.
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brumdog44 Jan 16 2012, 10:37 AM Post #12
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Mr Gray
Jan 16 2012, 09:06 AM
brum, here is the direct quote from the guy I was talking about on this thread, regarding his reasoning for having class basketball be a state legislature issue.

I respectfully disagree with those who say this isn’t the sort of issue that our legislature should take up. I think it’s exactly an issue for consideration and debate by the General Assembly.

Article 8 of the Indiana Constitution vests the General Assembly with responsibility over education. Like it or not, interscholastic athletics is an integral part of our education system, and has been for some time.

That's a complete smokescreen. The IHSAA is a private organization who runs and organizes the tournament. The Indiana DOE has no jurisdiction over their decisions.
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Mr Gray Jan 16 2012, 10:45 AM Post #13
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brumdog44
Jan 16 2012, 10:24 AM
BTown11
Jan 16 2012, 12:40 AM
brumdog44
Jan 12 2012, 06:45 PM
Mr Gray
Jan 12 2012, 08:43 AM
hmm....I saw a post from a state rep on facebook a week ago or so explaining why this is a state issue....hadn't really given it much thought. Who made the decision in 96' to change it to the class system?
IHSAA, which oversees the tournament, with a LOT of input from member schools. All member schools were polled, and I believe that it was in the mid 80%s for school in favor of going to a multi-class tournament.

The whole argument about attendance drop is a silly one.....the #1 factor in the attendance drop is that smaller schools are playing longer. Before you'd probably see 14 or 15 huge schools playing in the round of 16 in the semi-state games; now the round of 16 will consist of 4 four A schools, 4 three A schools, 4 two A, and 4 one A schools.

The 500 pound gorilla in the room, though, is that private schools bringing in recruits hurt the whole reason to go to class basketball anyway.
while I agree with everything you've said, 4A isn't really affected by private school recruiting. that class has been dominated by the metro Indy schools (LN, NC, Pike, etc). the 4A private schools would struggle to stay above water in a conference like the MIC. Actually the public schools in Indy recruit better than private.


doesn't change the validity of your argument though.
Here is the catch, though: what private schools are 4A?

I know in football -- which has five divisions -- not a single school is private. I think that holds true for the 4A division in basketball as well.

4A is a separate best as well because of how different the size of the schools are in that division. I believe that the 3A division that schools vary in population from around 800 to 1150....but in 4A, it varies from 1150 to over 3000. Even in the top division, I don't recall schools in the under 2000 population being in the title game.
Brum, the posters on here that are from the Indy and south of Indy might not have a 1st hand understanding of what you are talking about, but I completely agree with you because it is so prevalent here. Here is a GREAT example.

James Knapke: I know this kid's family personally, so I will use him as an example. Great athlete and excels in all 3 sports, Basketball, Football, Baseball. Now...add this to his resume courtesy of going to Bishop Luers High School at 2 Freakin A.

Football: 3 State Championships (2009, 10, 11)
Basketball: 1 State Championship (2009) and probably a favorite for another one this year
Baseball: None yet, but I heard that they are actually the favorite this year.

Now...this kid has 4 state championships, and a good shot at 6....I mean, I would say that 99% of all high school athletes don't have any. Is there some magic about this rundown school on the south side of Fort Wayne?

(most of you probably already know, but this is also the school that Deshaun Thomas went to)
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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BTown11 Jan 16 2012, 10:54 AM Post #14
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they should make all the private schools play up to 4A where they will get squashed by the Indy teams.

and just for fun I graduated with 4 state champ rings even though I didn't really contribute much for them. I graduated with a kid who had enough team/individual rings to outfit all his fingers and toes -- thumbs and big toes not withstanding.
Death to Signatures.
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brumdog44 Jan 16 2012, 02:00 PM Post #15
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Jan 16 2012, 10:54 AM
they should make all the private schools play up to 4A where they will get squashed by the Indy teams.

and just for fun I graduated with 4 state champ rings even though I didn't really contribute much for them. I graduated with a kid who had enough team/individual rings to outfit all his fingers and toes -- thumbs and big toes not withstanding.
There was a proposal that was put out previously that would have simply used a multiplier on private schools of 1.5....basically if a private school had 400 students, they would be asked to compete at a level of 600 students, wherever that would place them. Basically most schools would bump up a class, although there would still be almost no one bump up to 4A. For a school like Luers, they would probably bump up to 3A...and still be a threat for the title every year, but at this point they play one or two postseason games that really even matter how well they play. A lawsuit brought forth by private schools stopped, which to me says that they would rather win on the unlevel field that they are on.

Last year, I believe 7 of the 8 teams in football's lower three divisions were private schools. There are always at least 6 at this level, despite the fact that the public schools probably outnumber the private schools 10 to 1.

Bowman Academy (which technically is a charter school -- and has a waiting list, but somehow any high quality basketball player gets in even when they reside outside of Gary (Gary politics, you know)) won a state title in their third year of existence, I believe...and they didn't even have a senior on their team.

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