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VJIII Debate
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 13 2012, 09:42 PM (298 Views)
Jazen Jan 13 2012, 09:42 PM Post #1
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I'm not going to sugar coat anything, I've said myself that, IMO, his on the court flaws lie generally in pressure situations; bad passing, dribbling into impossible situations, throwing the ball out of bounds in crucial parts of the game, etc. It can't be denied, it's pretty much a given that we'll see it in every game. And I've also said, in a thread I started called "VJIII: Heaven and Hell", that he can be as good as he is bad. He has a killer mid range game, and has been known to be pretty smooth in the lane at times.

This has nothing to do with him personally, and I respect anyone that puts on an IU jersey, but what I'm concerned with is why TC keeps letting him log as many minutes as he does. I mean, what is it?:

1. Because he's a senior and TC is loyal?
2. Because Verdell is Heaven and Hell, and he can strike at any time?
3. Because Verdell has been there through the roughest of times and it's an "honor" thing? A habit?
4. Because of his defense?
5. Because he's our best floor general/ball handler?

All this being said, it's sort of an enigma to me as to where he fits in this year.

I just wanna here some thoughts.
Edited by Jazen, Jan 13 2012, 09:44 PM.
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Jazen Jan 13 2012, 09:45 PM Post #2
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After I just read through my post, maybe I should have added an "all of the above" option.

I'm just lost with this guy.
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dreachon Jan 13 2012, 09:50 PM Post #3
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I think his defense has been much better this year and I think when the offense stalls he can create and hit a tough shot.

Otherwise, I'm sure it's just a level of comfort and loyalty to a senior. It's obviously not because he's the best player. Sheehey is better than him now and if Abell isn't, he will be soon.

When all is said and done, I'm OK with it. Crean obviously either likes him as a starter or likes having Sheehey off the bench. Whatever it is, I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to tell Crean what he should be doing with VJIII. He obviously sees all the same mistakes and everything that we do.
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obatskii Jan 13 2012, 09:58 PM Post #4
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I am a sucker for a Verdell thread.

First, girls and boys, as Jaz just demonstrated, you can question someone without calling them names.

Second, I agree with Dreach.

Third, as I said in the other thread, if you're going to be mad at someone, be mad at Crean for playing him. He gets paid, and deserves more criticism than anyone if a player isn't playing well when there are other options. I'd say Verdell wants to win more than, if not as much as anyone on our team. I haven't heard stories about any other player being their well after the game honing their trade.

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Jazen Jan 13 2012, 10:04 PM Post #5
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obatskii
Jan 13 2012, 09:58 PM
I am a sucker for a Verdell thread.

VJIII seems to be dominating every game thread, whether it be right or wrong. Might as well have it in one place, eh?

It's no secret that he's prone to brain fart moments, it's just the fact that he does it game after game. Problem is, he's lifted us up damn near as much as he's tore us down.

I just don't get it.
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tAmazingHoosier Jan 13 2012, 10:07 PM Post #6
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Blame coach Crean for trusting his Senior not to make Freshman mistakes... niiiice.

Definitely not his defense. He has 0 defensive awareness. He's a fine 1on1 defender, yes, but other than that he looks lost out there.

I definitely think it's because he DOES have a HUGE will to win, and he's a senior. But really Coach Crean, production has to be your #1 priority. There's only so much homage you can give to someone that constantly puts us in holes.
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Jazen Jan 13 2012, 10:20 PM Post #7
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I'm going to lay it out:

I think Verdell's biggest flaw is due to, at least, the point production that he was able to accomplish in his first few years at Indiana. In other words, there simply was no one else that could score. Or barely. Along with the fan support (especially in our down years) he became accustomed to being the go to guy. He was worth 18 points per game with what he had around him, and of course IU fans were grateful. As always.

That said, I think he garnered a false sense of "stardom", for lack of a better word, at a school like Indiana. Even last year, I remember my gut feeling being that he wanted his points, no matter what it took; hence the forced shots, driving into traffic, etc. In other words, in his first 2/3 years his role was different due to the lack of talent around him. He HAD to score.

Things have changed, along with the addition of Zeller, everyone's gotten better; Hulls, Watford, Sheehey, Oladipo, and even Matt Roth.

For some reason, and it's been a gut feeling of mine, and not for the truth of the matter because I can't say for certain, but I've felt Verdell still "needed" that "stardom", and has therefore been unable to settle into a role. Instead of him being hell bent on taking care of the ball, he wants to score.

I just can't figure out if it's his winning desire, or selfishness.

I seriously don't know.



Edited by Jazen, Jan 13 2012, 10:23 PM.
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tAmazingHoosier Jan 13 2012, 10:29 PM Post #8
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Jazen
Jan 13 2012, 10:20 PM
I'm going to lay it out:

I think Verdell's biggest flaw is due to, at least, the point production that he was able to accomplish in his first few years at Indiana. In other words, there simply was no one else that could score. Or barely. Along with the fan support (especially in our down years) he became accustomed to being the go to guy. He was worth 18 points per game with what he had around him, and of course IU fans were grateful. As always.

That said, I think he garnered a false sense of "stardom", for lack of a better word, at a school like Indiana. Even last year, I remember my gut feeling being that he wanted his points, no matter what it took; hence the forced shots, driving into traffic, etc. In other words, in his first 2/3 years his role was different due to the lack of talent around him. He HAD to score.

Things have changed, along with the addition of Zeller, everyone's gotten better; Hulls, Watford, Sheehey, Oladipo, and even Matt Roth.

For some reason, and it's been a gut feeling of mine, and not for the truth of the matter because I can't say for certain, but I've felt Verdell still "needed" that "stardom", and has therefore been unable to settle into a role. Instead of him being hell bent on taking care of the ball, he wants to score.

I just can't figure out if it's his winning desire, or selfishness.

I seriously don't know.



:cheers:

Agreed man. I've thought the same thing about the "stardome" shit.
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obatskii Jan 13 2012, 11:06 PM Post #9
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tAmazingHoosier
Jan 13 2012, 10:07 PM
Blame coach Crean for trusting his Senior not to make Freshman mistakes... niiiice.

There's a reason he doesn't play Pritchard....If he's smart enough to do that yet, he shouldn't be dumb enough of play Verdell if he's that awful (which he isn't). You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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dedicatedIUfan Jan 14 2012, 12:09 AM Post #10
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This is the best thread ever! :cheers:

All kidding aside, I won't comment on this thread directly at VJ because you all know where I stand. But Jaz's points need to be taken seriously and I hope all of you read them.


Here is a quote from a Yahoo article:
"Senior Verdell Jones III continues to make IU fans crazy. Although he has improved on the defensive end this season, he still has been a bit selfish with the ball and has made some critical mistakes in games. In his last two games, Jones has recorded 12 assists, but he has turned the ball over seven times and has passed up a number of opportunities to share the ball with his teammates.


Jones has the experience to be a leader, but his play on the court has been so uneven that he hasn’t been able to embrace that leadership role. IU needs Jones to play with patience and not force things that aren’t there to avoid a step back in the next few weeks."


























I lied: SELFISHNESS It seems everytime that we need a big basket or try to get on a run, VJ seems to always take an off balance 18 footer early in the shot clock or try to drive to the basket between 9 defenders, I know but when he lose the ball it seems like 9 guys are around him, and loses the ball.

But Crean can also be blamed in this as well. He has enough talent on the team that he can sit VJ. It must be the loyalty thing is the reason why he plays. Maybe he promised him X amount of playing time during his 4 years if he committed and Crean is a man of his word.
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panchen_lama Jan 14 2012, 12:13 AM Post #11
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i might be way off...but i think crean might have reached a new area of coaching at indiana last game. it's the first year he's really had any kind of reasonable expectations at this stage of the season and he mixed it up after halftime against minny - also arguably the first time his 3 guards of choice struggled mightily together for such a duration. he has options now, let's give him a chance to coach through it.

i do think VJIII has an important and high profile role to play (he might very well be our best player some nights), but it is also imperative that guys like will and remy (even roth in some situations) earn more minutes. these minutes need not all come at VJIII's expense, but there are more minutes that need to go around depending on context. and i trust ctc to figure it out.
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dçamden03 Jan 14 2012, 12:15 AM Post #12
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Yeah, end of game lineup needs to be Hulls/Sheehey/Oladipo/Watford/Zeller. I suppose a reason that Jones is in there is because I feel Sheehey and Watford can become a little jump shot happy late in games, instead of attacking the basket, which is something that Tom Crean wants. He's been pretty adamant about foul and free throw differences the last few years needing to be turned in Indiana's favor.
“He’s always been a guy — maybe to a fault — he would always try to do what I said. That seems like something simple in coaching, but those are the guys I hang my hat on. We’ve had some guys in our program, we had a couple guys that felt I had a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. And they were right — I do have a bias towards E’Twaun Moore. I like guys that go to class, that are academic All-Americans, that come early, that stay late, that love the game of basketball. I am biased towards those guys. And I’m biased towards Rob Hummel. But I’m also biased towards their habits, their work ethic, and how they carry themselves."

"I’d take him to the ends of the earth — I’d want him playing for me.” - Bo Ryan on Robbie Hummel

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Jazen Jan 14 2012, 12:59 AM Post #13
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IMA just say it flat out:

As much as I appreciate Verdell being here in the dark days, he just doesn't belong in DI ball.

Step back, gather yourself, and take a look. It's truly not even my own opinion, it's just the way the world turns on it's axis in DI BB conference.

Thank you Verdell for all that you've done, much appreciated, but the program is moving on, and I hope you have a productive life and prosper in every aspect of your life.

Suit up Yogi, it's time to rock-n-roll.




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obatskii Jan 14 2012, 01:40 AM Post #14
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Jazen
Jan 14 2012, 12:59 AM
IMA just say it flat out:

As much as I appreciate Verdell being here in the dark days, he just doesn't belong in DI ball.

Step back, gather yourself, and take a look. It's truly not even my own opinion, it's just the way the world turns on it's axis in DI BB conference.

Thank you Verdell for all that you've done, much appreciated, but the program is moving on, and I hope you have a productive life and prosper in every aspect of your life.

Suit up Yogi, it's time to rock-n-roll.




Again at least you're respectful...but I think Verdell is a D1 player and I think he makes our team better. Obviously he's not the best, but I'm glad he's on the team.

GO VERDELL!
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sirbrianwilson Jan 14 2012, 02:19 AM Post #15
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Looking at this objectively:

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He's arguably been our worst starter from a national perspective...

br
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