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The Death Penalty; New discussion
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 17 2012, 10:18 AM (231 Views)
IUCOLTFAN Jan 17 2012, 05:25 PM Post #16
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Mr Gray
Jan 17 2012, 05:13 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Jan 17 2012, 04:49 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what the Jaycee Duggard case has to do with murder and the death penalty??

Kidnapped by a weirdo = being wrongly convicted of a crime by the state......??????? I don't see the connection.
Dugard had 20 years of her life taken away from her, for no fault of her own. During that time she was held captive, saw very little of the outside world, performed some menial labor for no wages, was mentally and physically abuse, and was raped.

Richard Garber had 12 years of his life taken away. During that time he was held captive, saw almost nothing of the outside world, performed some menial labor for no wages, was mentally abused, physically abused (to the point of causing permanent and severe brain damage) and likely raped.

Dugard's scenario is a national tragedy to which nobody in their right mind can find justification for.
Garber's scenario is known to almost nobody, receives no national sympathy, but sadly is considered "justified" by many because it is the exception and not the rule of our justice system.

Garber is technically alive, however his life is gone...he can't even feed himself because of the prison beating. Some say that they would rather have 1 wrong conviction than have 100 killers on the loose....I'll bet those same people wouldn't say that if that 1 wrongly convicted person was someone close to them. I'll bet Garber's mother would rather have 10,000 killers on the loose than have to watch her son in a wheel chair gazing off into space because our justice system didn't work.
...and Duggard was kidnapped by a weirdo and the dude was wrongly convicted by the state. Still no real connection that I see. I feel for both of them but not sure what answer you are looking for. The general public had nothing to do with either situation. (1) Sounds to me like the neither the prosecuter nor the defense attorney did their jobs very well in the case of the 2 boys. (2) I was not involved in making the Duggard case a national story. Sounds to me like your beef should be with the media.

You made kind of a weird argument for a thread that I assumed was going to be about the death penalty.
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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 05:32 PM Post #17
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Mr Gray
Jan 17 2012, 04:52 PM
so are you saying that we should never have a death penalty conviction with circumstantial evidence?
Great point. I'm in the midst of watching Michigan vs Doug Stewart (Court TV/TruTV) which is based entirely on circumstantial evidence; no finger prints, no DNA, no forensics, no murder weapon, and most importantly, no body.

However, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming:

1. A confessed accomplice (20 year old Ricky Spencer) that stayed in Virginia living the life of Doug Stewart in order to create an alibi; making purchases, paying bills, etc. (disguised with a hoodie and baggy clothes)

2. Video cameras have Doug Stewart on video tape in a Wal Mart in northern Ohio buying a tarp, duct tape, and a shovel, among other things AT the supposed time he is in his apartment sick off work, only hours before the disappearance of his wife, (his accomplice made the phone call to Stewart's work from Stewart's cell phone calling in sick)

3. Trac phones were purchased (video evidence of Stewart buying them) between the pair to communicate and stay untraceable. Again, circumstantial because the content of those conversations will never be known

4. The Wal Mart receipt containing those items were found in Stewart's truck (what a dumbass), questionably circumstantial in conjunction with the video evidence

5. Ricky Spencer gave a full confession in under an hour after being brought in for interrogation. 20 year old stay at home video game player, not the most socially adept/brightest person you'll ever meet, but obviously very gullible

6. A witness identified Stewart in his truck near his ex wife's parents house (where she was hiding out) the morning of the disappearance

The list of circumstantial evidence goes on, IMO, of which is highly condemning to the person charged, husband Doug Stewart in this case, along with a back story of a bad marriage, custody battle, and accusations of child abuse pertaining to him via witnesses and family that knew them both.

However, to answer your question, I'm not so sure I'd personally pursue the death penalty in a case without a body, which in this case, the DP isn't on the table either, just life without parole.

Do I think he did it? Hell yes. Would I purse the DP in ANY circumstantial case.

Probably not.

Edited by Jazen, Jan 17 2012, 05:56 PM.
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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 05:52 PM Post #18
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Regarding the Jaycee Dugard case, there's concrete proof that he raped her as a child. Her (his) children are proof.

Good enough for me, fry that fucker.
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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 05:52 PM Post #19
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..oh, and his wife.
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Mr Gray Jan 17 2012, 07:19 PM Post #20
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Jazen
Jan 17 2012, 05:52 PM
Regarding the Jaycee Dugard case, there's concrete proof that he raped her as a child. Her (his) children are proof.

Good enough for me, fry that fucker.
:facepalm: that was not the connection I was making....LOL, I think I'm in a Seinfeld episode or something...LOL.

I was trying to point out that being wrongfully convicted is the equivalent to what Jaycee and her family went through. Having a large portion of your life forcefully taken from you.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jan 17 2012, 08:32 PM Post #21
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Mr Gray
Jan 17 2012, 07:19 PM
Jazen
Jan 17 2012, 05:52 PM
Regarding the Jaycee Dugard case, there's concrete proof that he raped her as a child. Her (his) children are proof.

Good enough for me, fry that fucker.
:facepalm: that was not the connection I was making....LOL, I think I'm in a Seinfeld episode or something...LOL.

I was trying to point out that being wrongfully convicted is the equivalent to what Jaycee and her family went through. Having a large portion of your life forcefully taken from you.
That's true, but it still isn't an argument against the death penalty.
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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 08:33 PM Post #22
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Mr Gray
Jan 17 2012, 07:19 PM
Jazen
Jan 17 2012, 05:52 PM
Regarding the Jaycee Dugard case, there's concrete proof that he raped her as a child. Her (his) children are proof.

Good enough for me, fry that fucker.
:facepalm: that was not the connection I was making....LOL, I think I'm in a Seinfeld episode or something...LOL.

I was trying to point out that being wrongfully convicted is the equivalent to what Jaycee and her family went through. Having a large portion of your life forcefully taken from you.
I was basically responding to IUColtfan.

Somehow got lost while rolling through the thread.

Would you impose the DP for someone "stealing" years from their victim? As opposed to premediated murder etc.?

Agreed, feels like a Seinfeld episode, not quite sure where we're going with this.
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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 08:36 PM Post #23
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Either way, my stance on the DP probably differs than most. I need a smoking gun, definite proof to put someone down, and in that case I'm for it.

However, I don't need "murder" if it comes to child molestation. If the proof is there, take 'em out.

We are talking about the DP, yes?
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brumdog44 Jan 17 2012, 08:55 PM Post #24
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aaron and I completely mix the 'stated policies' of our affiliated parties on this one. I am in favor of the death penalty.

When you exclude the stupidly excessive capital punishment in Texas -- which many stuides fail to do -- most studies will show that it saves lives. Those convicted have had their day in court -- that is MULTIPLE days in court. The average time between a person being sentenced to death and execution has been increasing for years...it now stands at 169 months, or over 14 years.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/time-death-row
From 1967 to 1997, there were 560,000 murders in the United States; only 358 were executed. That's .06% of all murderers that were executed, which indicates that it was done very judiciously and only in severe cases (which it continues to be.....except in Texas).
IMO, in the case of conviction of a single murder is not something that should be a death penalty issue.
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brumdog44 Jan 17 2012, 08:57 PM Post #25
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BTW, since 1976, 1,278 executions have taken place. 477 of those -- close to 40% -- have come in Texas. 1,049 of them have come from the South.
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dreachon Jan 17 2012, 09:05 PM Post #26
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When it comes to the death penalty, the arguments against it are great. The reason I'm for it is quite simple.

If someone were to ever due something so heinous to my wife or child, I want them dead. That's all there is to it. There's just no way I can tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed the same.
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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 09:30 PM Post #27
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dreachon
Jan 17 2012, 09:05 PM
When it comes to the death penalty, the arguments against it are great. The reason I'm for it is quite simple.

If someone were to ever due something so heinous to my wife or child, I want them dead. That's all there is to it. There's just no way I can tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed the same.
Exactly right, dreach. The arguments with the DP will probably always be an open debate. It's an extremely wide topic, mainly due to the fact of "WHAT IF IT HAPPENED TO YOU? WOULD YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND?"

I can tell you this..

If my son in law, for example in the post I mentioned above, was a suspect in my daughter's disappearance, couldn't find her, etc., and I "knew" things from his history that was inadmissible in court, and I knew he did it..

Give me him, five minutes and a set of pliers, and I guarantee I would find her body.

I feel strongly for the families that lose loved ones to these pieces of shit. Ironically, and maybe a raw comparison, but my oldest daughter is named Jaci (pronounced JAYCEE), and she was 11 years old when this story broke, same as Dugard, but I've always followed true crime, and sometimes small things like this can you bring you a little closer to the "what if it happened to you?" syndrome. Maybe you have to have kids to understand, I really don't know.

I have no sympathy for people that sneak up behind you and murder you, hijack a plane with innocent people, abduct an innocent child, cap you for your shoes while you're not looking, etc.

If their guilt is proven in court, I'm appalled at having to pay for them to eat everyday. Anyone on this planet can be dangerous because being dangerous is the ultimate act of simply being a coward.

To me, it depends 100% on the nature of the crime and the proof, but if I have what I need, I'll wear the hood any day of the week.
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Mr Gray Jan 17 2012, 09:40 PM Post #28
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dreachon
Jan 17 2012, 09:05 PM
When it comes to the death penalty, the arguments against it are great. The reason I'm for it is quite simple.

If someone were to ever due something so heinous to my wife or child, I want them dead. That's all there is to it. There's just no way I can tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed the same.
how would you feel if your wife was wrongfully convicted of a crime and facing the death penalty?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jan 17 2012, 09:49 PM Post #29
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Mr Gray
Jan 17 2012, 09:40 PM
dreachon
Jan 17 2012, 09:05 PM
When it comes to the death penalty, the arguments against it are great. The reason I'm for it is quite simple.

If someone were to ever due something so heinous to my wife or child, I want them dead. That's all there is to it. There's just no way I can tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed the same.
how would you feel if your wife was wrongfully convicted of a crime and facing the death penalty?
I would hope that in the next 169 months of appeals that she is exonerated or has the decision overturned, especially since she has been so wrongfully convicted. I don't think I'd feel any better if she were given a life sentence.



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Jazen Jan 17 2012, 09:55 PM Post #30
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If none of the interested have seen "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Lost: 2" from HBO. See it.

3 teens from West Memphis, Arkansas, that was railroaded on the whim of the way they dressed, the type of music they listened to, etc., and ultimately one condemned to the DP without an ounce of physical evidence, it's a must see.

They were released last year for a crime that happened in 1993. If you do some research, or watch the documentary, you will probably be appalled.

They were released late last year (2011) on the promise that they wouldn't sue the state of Arkansas. 3 eight year olds were murdered, and after countless books I've read to this day, I still don't know what to believe.

One of the most fucked up situations I've seen in this country's justice system.



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