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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,558 Views)
dreachon Apr 20 2012, 02:29 PM Post #196
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Think we should condense the 3 Zimmerman threads now. Any way to do that?
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Mr Gray Apr 20 2012, 02:31 PM Post #197
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM
Of course I believe the wounds happened in a struggle. And yes it matters if it happened in concrete or grass, because Zimmerman said it happened in concrete.

My only point is that if his head was being slammed into concrete to the point that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and his only option was to shoot Martin, I'd expect significant injuries. If the there aren't significant injuries, I question whether Martin had to die.
the degree to which my head is being slammed into the ground probably isn't something that I would be evaluating when deciding whether or not to lethally defend myself. You could suffer the same damage from 100 small hits as you do from 10 large hits to the concrete, and both have the potential to be deadly.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Apr 20 2012, 02:37 PM Post #198
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Mr Gray
Apr 20 2012, 02:31 PM
dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM
Of course I believe the wounds happened in a struggle. And yes it matters if it happened in concrete or grass, because Zimmerman said it happened in concrete.

My only point is that if his head was being slammed into concrete to the point that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and his only option was to shoot Martin, I'd expect significant injuries. If the there aren't significant injuries, I question whether Martin had to die.
the degree to which my head is being slammed into the ground probably isn't something that I would be evaluating when deciding whether or not to lethally defend myself. You could suffer the same damage from 100 small hits as you do from 10 large hits to the concrete, and both have the potential to be deadly.
I guess it depends on what the jury will be asked to do. If the question is whether Zimmerman had just cause to shoot Martin, I'm not sure a couple of scrapes on the back of the head are going to help the defense much.
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Jazen Apr 20 2012, 02:40 PM Post #199
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:29 PM
Think we should condense the 3 Zimmerman threads now. Any way to do that?
Agreed. Bri's more the tech guy, but I think I can figure it out.
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Jazen Apr 20 2012, 02:42 PM Post #200
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Done, now under "George Zimmerman"
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eelbor Apr 20 2012, 02:43 PM Post #201
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Jazen
Apr 20 2012, 02:42 PM
Done, now under "George Zimmerman"
Now I am all confused.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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dreachon Apr 20 2012, 02:43 PM Post #202
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Sweet. Nice job Jaz.
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Jazen Apr 20 2012, 02:44 PM Post #203
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Apr 20 2012, 02:43 PM
Sweet. Nice job Jaz.
Good idea dreach, thanks.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 20 2012, 02:46 PM Post #204
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM
Of course I believe the wounds happened in a struggle. And yes it matters if it happened in concrete or grass, because Zimmerman said it happened in concrete.

My only point is that if his head was being slammed into concrete to the point that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and his only option was to shoot Martin, I'd expect significant injuries. If the there aren't significant injuries, I question whether Martin had to die.
Can you shoot someone if you become unconscience? For some reason you are expecting way more detail and technicalities to admit that MAYBE Zim is telling the truth than you needed to convict him in your mind a few days ago. Why is that? You didn't come into this argument with a neutral perspective and you are still fighting it hard....
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dreachon Apr 20 2012, 02:51 PM Post #205
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IUCOLTFAN
Apr 20 2012, 02:46 PM
dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM
Of course I believe the wounds happened in a struggle. And yes it matters if it happened in concrete or grass, because Zimmerman said it happened in concrete.

My only point is that if his head was being slammed into concrete to the point that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and his only option was to shoot Martin, I'd expect significant injuries. If the there aren't significant injuries, I question whether Martin had to die.
Can you shoot someone if you become unconscience? For some reason you are expecting way more detail and technicalities to admit that MAYBE Zim is telling the truth than you needed to convict him in your mind a few days ago. Why is that? You didn't come into this argument with a neutral perspective and you are still fighting it hard....
Right, because everyone in this discussion has a neutral perspective.

Here's where you're wrong. I DO think it's possible Zimmerman is telling the truth. I just don't think that exonerates him. I think the stand your ground law should apply to Martin since Zimmerman is the one who pursued Martin.
Edited by dreachon, Apr 20 2012, 02:55 PM.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 20 2012, 03:06 PM Post #206
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:51 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 20 2012, 02:46 PM
dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM
Of course I believe the wounds happened in a struggle. And yes it matters if it happened in concrete or grass, because Zimmerman said it happened in concrete.

My only point is that if his head was being slammed into concrete to the point that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and his only option was to shoot Martin, I'd expect significant injuries. If the there aren't significant injuries, I question whether Martin had to die.
Can you shoot someone if you become unconscience? For some reason you are expecting way more detail and technicalities to admit that MAYBE Zim is telling the truth than you needed to convict him in your mind a few days ago. Why is that? You didn't come into this argument with a neutral perspective and you are still fighting it hard....
Right, because everyone in this discussion has a neutral perspective.

Here's where your wrong. I DO think it's possible Zimmerman is telling the truth. I just don't think that exonerates him. I think the stand your ground law should apply to Martin since Zimmerman is the one who pursued Martin.
Yes, he claims and admits that he INITIALLY pursued (at least you aren't saying "chased" anymore) him, he also claims that Martin ran and he lost sight of him. At the end of the 911 call, Zim is apparently stationary (not moving) and waiting on the police to arrive...he talks about meeting them at the gate. So, IT APPEARS (to the objective observer) that the pursuit did stop at some point before the final confrontation. No doubt that this case is legally challenging.....both sides have arguments to use. It will depend on the witnesses and how well the prosecuter can state the case. Considering the situation and the Stand Your Ground law being in play (possibly for both), Murder 2 seems like a huge stretch, but I'm no lawyer admittedly.
If you have paid attention in this thread, I haven't taken sides or argued innocence or guilt. I find the case interesting and honestly could see it going either way. But I do question how you see it so clearly to one side. Is it that it was a kid? His race? You think Zimmerman is a liar? You don't like people carrying guns? You gotta admit, you jumped feet first into the pro-Martin pool. Just wondering why that is?
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Mr Gray Apr 20 2012, 03:09 PM Post #207
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:51 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 20 2012, 02:46 PM
dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM
Of course I believe the wounds happened in a struggle. And yes it matters if it happened in concrete or grass, because Zimmerman said it happened in concrete.

My only point is that if his head was being slammed into concrete to the point that Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and his only option was to shoot Martin, I'd expect significant injuries. If the there aren't significant injuries, I question whether Martin had to die.
Can you shoot someone if you become unconscience? For some reason you are expecting way more detail and technicalities to admit that MAYBE Zim is telling the truth than you needed to convict him in your mind a few days ago. Why is that? You didn't come into this argument with a neutral perspective and you are still fighting it hard....
Right, because everyone in this discussion has a neutral perspective.

Here's where you're wrong. I DO think it's possible Zimmerman is telling the truth. I just don't think that exonerates him. I think the stand your ground law should apply to Martin since Zimmerman is the one who pursued Martin.
and as I said when I started this one back up today....that will not be the argument the prosecution tries to make...the new photo probably takes the "Zimmerman wasn't in danger" argument out of the mix. I have no idea how the SYG law will be interpreted if they determine that Martin was 1st defending himself. Does anyone know if there is Florida precedent for that...a person instigating a confrontation, the other person applying potentially lethal force in defending themselves, and then the 1st person feels their life in now in danger and also applies lethal force, but in their case it was successful, and the 2nd person dies...I doubt it, but if it exists one of the sides will find it (the side in which the verdict agrees with them)
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Apr 20 2012, 09:59 PM Post #208
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I'll be totally honest with you Colt. I jumped feet first into the Martin pool because the kid is dead, it doesn't appear to me that he should be.

If Zimmerman is going to shoot and kill an unarmed 17 year old, I want to know that his life was imminently in danger. If he didn't kill Martin, Martin would have killed him. That's what it would take to convince me that Zimmerman had the right to pull the trigger. I just don't see it in this case.

And as for me saying "pursued" instead of "chased" I feel justified in saying either. Hell, you could say stalked too. Zimmerman slowly followed Martin in his car, then got out of the car and ran after him. If that's not chasing someone, what is?

And don't give me that bullshit about how you are remaining objective and haven't taken sides. Please. You sit there and cry, "what about the witness who says he saw Martin beating up Zimmerman! Why is no one talking about him!?!?" Yet you conveniently never bring up the fact that Martin's girlfriend said while they were on the phone that Martin thought he lost Zimmerman, but then the man was back. In fact, isn't this why we're even arguing? Because every time I say something that could be pro-Martin, you are there taking the other side of it.

Dreach - "Well those don't look like head bashing wounds on Zimmerman's head"
Colt - "OMG is Dreach saying those wounds got there in some other way at conveniently the same time as the fight?"

Please. You have argued exclusively for one side while continually saying, "but I'm not choosing sides...." Bologna.

An armed man chased down a 17 year old kid. They got in a fight. The armed man shot the kid. I have no problem admitting I'm on the kid's side here barring some sort of major piece of evidence that hasn't been released yet.
Edited by dreachon, Apr 20 2012, 09:59 PM.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 20 2012, 10:51 PM Post #209
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 09:59 PM
I'll be totally honest with you Colt. I jumped feet first into the Martin pool because the kid is dead, it doesn't appear to me that he should be.

If Zimmerman is going to shoot and kill an unarmed 17 year old, I want to know that his life was imminently in danger. If he didn't kill Martin, Martin would have killed him. That's what it would take to convince me that Zimmerman had the right to pull the trigger. I just don't see it in this case.

And as for me saying "pursued" instead of "chased" I feel justified in saying either. Hell, you could say stalked too. Zimmerman slowly followed Martin in his car, then got out of the car and ran after him. If that's not chasing someone, what is?

And don't give me that bullshit about how you are remaining objective and haven't taken sides. Please. You sit there and cry, "what about the witness who says he saw Martin beating up Zimmerman! Why is no one talking about him!?!?" Yet you conveniently never bring up the fact that Martin's girlfriend said while they were on the phone that Martin thought he lost Zimmerman, but then the man was back. In fact, isn't this why we're even arguing? Because every time I say something that could be pro-Martin, you are there taking the other side of it.

Dreach - "Well those don't look like head bashing wounds on Zimmerman's head"
Colt - "OMG is Dreach saying those wounds got there in some other way at conveniently the same time as the fight?"

Please. You have argued exclusively for one side while continually saying, "but I'm not choosing sides...." Bologna.

An armed man chased down a 17 year old kid. They got in a fight. The armed man shot the kid. I have no problem admitting I'm on the kid's side here barring some sort of major piece of evidence that hasn't been released yet.
I've said many times that I could see it go either way...can you read? I just said it a few posts back. The point is that you had Zimmermann convicted of a maliceous crime before you ever had any idea of evidence or witnesses. You believe a phone witness yet you dont put any stock in an EYE-witness. No matter what happens in this case, as long as it follows the current law and there is evidence to back the verdict, I dont care if he gets 40 years or goes free quite honestly. You are the one that already seems to have all the facts. I have no emotional investment in this case, I'm fine with either verdict. You wanted him arrested and you got your wish.....now you gotta PROVE the case. You obviously dont believe his version. I'd be interested to hear your step by step theory of what actually happened in this case.....
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brumdog44 Apr 21 2012, 12:35 AM Post #210
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Honestly, Colt, you use the 'either side' argument all the time but your action words speak differently. I've lost count of how many times you've posted something about a liberal and said "I'm tired of this shit on both sides of the aisle", yet you never post anything bad about the other side.
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