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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,557 Views)
Mr Gray Apr 21 2012, 08:25 AM Post #211
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dreachon
Apr 20 2012, 09:59 PM
I'll be totally honest with you Colt. I jumped feet first into the Martin pool because the kid is dead, it doesn't appear to me that he should be.

If Zimmerman is going to shoot and kill an unarmed 17 year old, I want to know that his life was imminently in danger. If he didn't kill Martin, Martin would have killed him. That's what it would take to convince me that Zimmerman had the right to pull the trigger. I just don't see it in this case.

And as for me saying "pursued" instead of "chased" I feel justified in saying either. Hell, you could say stalked too. Zimmerman slowly followed Martin in his car, then got out of the car and ran after him. If that's not chasing someone, what is?

And don't give me that bullshit about how you are remaining objective and haven't taken sides. Please. You sit there and cry, "what about the witness who says he saw Martin beating up Zimmerman! Why is no one talking about him!?!?" Yet you conveniently never bring up the fact that Martin's girlfriend said while they were on the phone that Martin thought he lost Zimmerman, but then the man was back. In fact, isn't this why we're even arguing? Because every time I say something that could be pro-Martin, you are there taking the other side of it.

Dreach - "Well those don't look like head bashing wounds on Zimmerman's head"
Colt - "OMG is Dreach saying those wounds got there in some other way at conveniently the same time as the fight?"

Please. You have argued exclusively for one side while continually saying, "but I'm not choosing sides...." Bologna.

An armed man chased down a 17 year old kid. They got in a fight. The armed man shot the kid. I have no problem admitting I'm on the kid's side here barring some sort of major piece of evidence that hasn't been released yet.
dreach, I see nothing wrong with you being on the kids side...we all take sides on almost everything all the time...I do think, however, that your thinking is representative of a large swath of the American public who jumped to multiple conclusions based on slanted media coverage, and were ready to string Zimmerman up before we really knew anything...and that is a problem.

I think it would be helpful if you stepped back and took a more objective look, by putting yourself separately in each person's shoes. You've obviously done that with Martin and his parents, but I doubt you have done the same with Zimmerman. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing something that you perceive as suspicious in your neighborhood and calling the police. If Zimmerman was the Rambo-vigilante that some make him out to be, I don't think he would have called law enforcement...he would have just "taken care of it" himself.

Regarding "following", "pursuing", or "stalking" him, I have called 911 on suspicion before, and they actually asked me if I could keep an eye on the person and let them know which direction they were going, so it's not unheard of. I realize they told him that it wasn't necessary, but it's important to note that they didn't order him not to follow either. If you believe the kid is suspicious, it would be a natural reaction, IMO, to try to keep an eye on him to tell the police where he was going, especially considering that the neighborhood has had a lot of problems recently.

We have no proof EITHER WAY as to how the actual scuffle started. It is very hard to believe that it started because Zimmerman actually caught Martin on foot, but if he did and he put Martin in a position where Martin had to physically defend himself, then I think Zimmerman lost his rights to use deadly force, regardless of how the law will look at it. If Zimmerman "lost" Martin and began walking back to his car and then Martin came back after Zimmerman and assaulted him, I think Zimmerman had a right to defend himself.

I carry my firearm 99% of the time when I leave the house...it's a force of habit now, and I am a legal responsible gun owner. I can assure you that if I was physically assaulted and a man had me pinned down slamming my head against the concrete, I would not have the time or the mental awareness to evaluate the degree in which my head is hitting the concrete, and the potential for long term injuries or death if I just sit there and take it.....the human body has a built in survival mechanism, and it takes over in moments like that, and the SECOND that I realized that I would be unable to get out of the predicament on my own, I would shoot....no question about it. That is where I would be sympathetic to Zimmerman, if his story turns out to be true. I would ask that you would take a real unbiased look at it, and tell me that if you were in a situation like that, would you just allow your head to be bashed in, or would you fire if you had the opportunity?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Apr 21 2012, 08:40 AM Post #212
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IUCOLTFAN
Apr 20 2012, 10:51 PM
I've said many times that I could see it go either way...can you read? I just said it a few posts back. The point is that you had Zimmermann convicted of a maliceous crime before you ever had any idea of evidence or witnesses. You believe a phone witness yet you dont put any stock in an EYE-witness. No matter what happens in this case, as long as it follows the current law and there is evidence to back the verdict, I dont care if he gets 40 years or goes free quite honestly. You are the one that already seems to have all the facts. I have no emotional investment in this case, I'm fine with either verdict. You wanted him arrested and you got your wish.....now you gotta PROVE the case. You obviously dont believe his version. I'd be interested to hear your step by step theory of what actually happened in this case.....
Saying you could see it go either way and actually believing something are two entirely different things. I can see the case go either way, easily. That doesn't mean shit. Brum is right. You sit here and constantly argue for Zimmerman's side and then try and call me out for supporting Martin's side. At least I'll man up and admit what side I'm on. And I never said I don't put any stock in the eye witness. In fact, I think both the phone witness AND the eye witness can be right. There's no conflict between their stories. I have no doubt that if Martin wasn't winning the fight as some point, they were at least in a situation where it could go either way. But a 17 year old kid buying skittles is dead. Good thing that regardless of whether Zimmerman is telling the truth or not, you don't care if he gets 40 years or goes free. Awesome opinion.

As to Aaron, I have put myself in Zimmerman's shoes and that's exactly why I feel like he was in the wrong. Because in no scenario can I ever imagine myself getting out of my car and running after someone just because I thought they looked suspicious. I can't relate to Zimmerman at all.
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Jazen Apr 21 2012, 11:37 AM Post #213
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dreachon
Apr 21 2012, 08:40 AM
in no scenario can I ever imagine myself getting out of my car and running after someone just because I thought they looked suspicious. I can't relate to Zimmerman at all.
I can't either, not in a million lifetimes.

I may be small town, but I can't imagine EVER roaming the neighborhood with a gun in my pocket looking for suspicious activity, merely as a normal citizen. And if I DID live in an area where that were, for a lack of a better term, 'essential', I'd get the fuck out and move to a small town.

That's here nor there to this argument, just my personal perspective of the objective events, BUT..

1. George Zimmerman was walking the neighborhood with a gun, for Christ's sakes

2. Trayvon Martin was walking home

Those are two facts that we know of, and that's where it starts - and ends with a dead teenager. Sad, sad shit.



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IUCOLTFAN Apr 23 2012, 04:11 PM Post #214
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Apr 21 2012, 12:35 AM
Honestly, Colt, you use the 'either side' argument all the time but your action words speak differently. I've lost count of how many times you've posted something about a liberal and said "I'm tired of this shit on both sides of the aisle", yet you never post anything bad about the other side.
Is this case political? I believe a person has the right to own a gun. I believe that due to the Stand Your Ground law this case is not cut and dry either way. I believe that the prosecutor is gonna have a tough time proving 2nd degree murder unless she has way more than what we currently know. I believe the MSM tried to make this a huge racial case before anyone knew even remotely what happened. I believe that some posters have Zimmerman guilty until proven innocent. And I am fine with the case going either way as long as the verdict follows the current laws and it is done with the known facts of the case. Not real sure why that is political to you. I am not for or against either Martin or Zimmerman. I have argued more points for Zimmerman simply because I thought a lot of posters had jumped to unfounded conclusions with knowing what even happened. Everything has to instantly be racial in this country....why? Why would a major network doctor a recording to incite racial tensions at a time like this? This thing is bigger than Martin/Zimmerman (unfortunately), I dread thinking of what could happen if Zimmerman is found innocent or if the verdict is not to the peoples liking.....it's gonna get ugly and I hate to see that. Have we peaked in regards to race relations? Sad to think that this could be as good as it gets.
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HoosierLars Apr 23 2012, 04:48 PM Post #215
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IUCOLTFAN
Apr 23 2012, 04:11 PM
brumdog44
Apr 21 2012, 12:35 AM
Honestly, Colt, you use the 'either side' argument all the time but your action words speak differently. I've lost count of how many times you've posted something about a liberal and said "I'm tired of this shit on both sides of the aisle", yet you never post anything bad about the other side.
Is this case political? I believe a person has the right to own a gun. I believe that due to the Stand Your Ground law this case is not cut and dry either way. I believe that the prosecutor is gonna have a tough time proving 2nd degree murder unless she has way more than what we currently know. I believe the MSM tried to make this a huge racial case before anyone knew even remotely what happened. I believe that some posters have Zimmerman guilty until proven innocent. And I am fine with the case going either way as long as the verdict follows the current laws and it is done with the known facts of the case. Not real sure why that is political to you. I am not for or against either Martin or Zimmerman. I have argued more points for Zimmerman simply because I thought a lot of posters had jumped to unfounded conclusions with knowing what even happened. Everything has to instantly be racial in this country....why? Why would a major network doctor a recording to incite racial tensions at a time like this? This thing is bigger than Martin/Zimmerman (unfortunately), I dread thinking of what could happen if Zimmerman is found innocent or if the verdict is not to the peoples liking.....it's gonna get ugly and I hate to see that. Have we peaked in regards to race relations? Sad to think that this could be as good as it gets.
Good summary. I think that the biggest story here could be the MSM doctoring evidence to increase the racial impact, e.g. doctoring the 911 audio and coining the expression "white Hispanic." Yet nobody at NBC appears to have been fired or disciplined.
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brumdog44 Apr 23 2012, 05:29 PM Post #216
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HoosierLars
Apr 23 2012, 04:48 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 23 2012, 04:11 PM
brumdog44
Apr 21 2012, 12:35 AM
Honestly, Colt, you use the 'either side' argument all the time but your action words speak differently. I've lost count of how many times you've posted something about a liberal and said "I'm tired of this shit on both sides of the aisle", yet you never post anything bad about the other side.
Is this case political? I believe a person has the right to own a gun. I believe that due to the Stand Your Ground law this case is not cut and dry either way. I believe that the prosecutor is gonna have a tough time proving 2nd degree murder unless she has way more than what we currently know. I believe the MSM tried to make this a huge racial case before anyone knew even remotely what happened. I believe that some posters have Zimmerman guilty until proven innocent. And I am fine with the case going either way as long as the verdict follows the current laws and it is done with the known facts of the case. Not real sure why that is political to you. I am not for or against either Martin or Zimmerman. I have argued more points for Zimmerman simply because I thought a lot of posters had jumped to unfounded conclusions with knowing what even happened. Everything has to instantly be racial in this country....why? Why would a major network doctor a recording to incite racial tensions at a time like this? This thing is bigger than Martin/Zimmerman (unfortunately), I dread thinking of what could happen if Zimmerman is found innocent or if the verdict is not to the peoples liking.....it's gonna get ugly and I hate to see that. Have we peaked in regards to race relations? Sad to think that this could be as good as it gets.
Good summary. I think that the biggest story here could be the MSM doctoring evidence to increase the racial impact, e.g. doctoring the 911 audio and coining the expression "white Hispanic." Yet nobody at NBC appears to have been fired or disciplined.
Read Colt's first question: 'is this case political'?

You call it a good summary....but then go on to state news agencies playing politics with it.

OF COURSE the case is political.

Secondly, NBC did fire the producer who edited the audio....not that you get that news on what you listen to and read. That happened like two days after the editing.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nbc-news-fires-producer-involved-in-editing-zimmerman-911-call/
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Mr Gray Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM Post #217
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http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Apr 24 2012, 09:30 AM Post #218
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brumdog44
Apr 23 2012, 05:29 PM
Secondly, NBC did fire the producer who edited the audio....not that you get that news on what you listen to and read. That happened like two days after the editing.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nbc-news-fires-producer-involved-in-editing-zimmerman-911-call/
That's good news, thanks for posting.
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dreachon Apr 24 2012, 09:53 AM Post #219
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Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
That's def fucked up, but are you suggesting the mob wouldn't have beat this guy if there wasn't any uproar about the Martin case?
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HoosierLars Apr 24 2012, 10:19 AM Post #220
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Mr Gray
Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
Wonder if Biden will call a news conference, and say if he had another son, he might look like Matthew.
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Jazen Apr 24 2012, 01:15 PM Post #221
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Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
Unfortunately, this is only the beginning. God forbid Zimmerman walk away with an acquittal. In terms of the Trayvon case, you can argue politics all you want, you can argue that the media inflamed this whole situation by inciting race issues, of course to 'have a big story'.

Whether these issues are true or not, and I believe they are, it all doesn't matter; a grown man carrying a gun around the neighborhood shot and killed a kid walking down the sidewalk.

The people don't give a shit about politics, or whether the media makes their money, they're tired of it all and it's come down to this.

Trust me, this isn't the end of it.
Edited by Jazen, Apr 24 2012, 01:16 PM.
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brumdog44 Apr 24 2012, 06:10 PM Post #222
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Apr 24 2012, 10:19 AM
Mr Gray
Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
Wonder if Biden will call a news conference, and say if he had another son, he might look like Matthew.
If Biden calls a news conference, he's likely to sprinkle in a few 'motherfuckers' before he gets lost in what he was trying to say.
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brumdog44 Apr 24 2012, 06:12 PM Post #223
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Jazen
Apr 24 2012, 01:15 PM
Mr Gray
Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
Unfortunately, this is only the beginning. God forbid Zimmerman walk away with an acquittal. In terms of the Trayvon case, you can argue politics all you want, you can argue that the media inflamed this whole situation by inciting race issues, of course to 'have a big story'.

Whether these issues are true or not, and I believe they are, it all doesn't matter; a grown man carrying a gun around the neighborhood shot and killed a kid walking down the sidewalk.

The people don't give a shit about politics, or whether the media makes their money, they're tired of it all and it's come down to this.

Trust me, this isn't the end of it.
Not even close. And I think that with how badly the prosecution has done, Zimmerman will be walking.
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HoosierLars Apr 24 2012, 07:29 PM Post #224
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Politically, I think Obama has a lot to lose, especially if Romney selects Rubio for his running mate. Blacks are already in the tank for Obama, but the combination of Rubio and the current administration's support for Martin, e.g. no action against the Black Panthers putting a price on Zimmerman's head, should make more Hispanics pull the lever for Mitt.
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Mr Gray Apr 25 2012, 06:09 AM Post #225
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dreachon
Apr 24 2012, 09:53 AM
Mr Gray
Apr 24 2012, 06:24 AM
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

Justice for Trayvon??? This shit makes me sick!!!
That's def fucked up, but are you suggesting the mob wouldn't have beat this guy if there wasn't any uproar about the Martin case?
decent chance that that is the case dreach.....blacks have been called to action pretty heavily over the last month, and that action has been to beat up white people.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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