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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,553 Views)
IUCOLTFAN Apr 30 2012, 02:15 PM Post #271
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dreachon
Apr 30 2012, 01:51 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 01:23 PM
Are you claiming that your initial reaction was not that Zimmerman was guilty of something? I haven't claimed anyone is guilty or innocent in this case. I've played devils advocate and said I could see it go either way.

I do have a question for you tho. Is it possible that Zim "chased" Martin and lost him and headed back to his vehicle (hence the 911 conversation about meeting the patrol car) and then Martin doubled back and confronted Zim while Martin was still on the phone with his girlfriend?
My initial reaction was that Zimmerman needed to be arrested and not walking around scot-free. And again, you saying the case could go either way and you believing whether Zimmerman is guilty or not are two entirely different things. Everyone says the case could go either way. Not everyone claims to be unbiased while solely arguing for one person in the case.

Yes, it's possible Martin double backed to Zimmerman while on the phone with his girlfriend. Does it make any sense? No. But it's possible.

I LOVE that you still put "chase" in quotation marks as if it's not clear whether Zimmerman got out of the car and went after Martin.
Show me a quote where I've stated that I am for Zimmermann OR Martin.

Zimmermann did follow Martin and he stated that he took off AND that he lost him. During the rest of the 911 call, Zim is not short of breath and there is no "wind noise" like he is running. He was told that a patrol car would meet him at the gate and he said that was fine.....then the confrontation happened. Are you saying Zim wasn't back at his vehicle waiting for the cops to show? Are you saying he went and found Martin again after that call?

I have no idea who started the physical part of the confrontation. I know that someone early on said that there was no way a teenager was on top of a "250 lb man" getting the best of him yet there is a witness to it. Others claimed there was nothing wrong with Zims head yet since then photos have come out that show that his head definitely hit/rubbed something.

I really dont care if you think I'm taking sides or not. If Zim is proven to have broken the current Florida law then he should pay the price and if he is proven to simply have defended himself during a physical confrontation and had broken no laws then he should be acquitted. Not sure how that is taking sides.

Apparently packing heat in Florida is legal
Killing someone in self defense is not a crime
Killing someone in cold blood is a crime

The entire case comes down to the physical confrontation and NONE of us on this board knows exactly what happened at that point.
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Mr Gray Apr 30 2012, 02:18 PM Post #272
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IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 02:15 PM
dreachon
Apr 30 2012, 01:51 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 01:23 PM
Are you claiming that your initial reaction was not that Zimmerman was guilty of something? I haven't claimed anyone is guilty or innocent in this case. I've played devils advocate and said I could see it go either way.

I do have a question for you tho. Is it possible that Zim "chased" Martin and lost him and headed back to his vehicle (hence the 911 conversation about meeting the patrol car) and then Martin doubled back and confronted Zim while Martin was still on the phone with his girlfriend?
My initial reaction was that Zimmerman needed to be arrested and not walking around scot-free. And again, you saying the case could go either way and you believing whether Zimmerman is guilty or not are two entirely different things. Everyone says the case could go either way. Not everyone claims to be unbiased while solely arguing for one person in the case.

Yes, it's possible Martin double backed to Zimmerman while on the phone with his girlfriend. Does it make any sense? No. But it's possible.

I LOVE that you still put "chase" in quotation marks as if it's not clear whether Zimmerman got out of the car and went after Martin.


The entire case comes down to the physical confrontation and NONE of us on this board knows exactly what happened at that point.
bliver does....Zimmerman "baited" Martin into a confrontation so he could get his ass kicked and then shoot him. :D
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Apr 30 2012, 02:24 PM Post #273
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Soooo, the fact that Zimmerman lost Martin means he never chased him?

I'm not claiming to know what happened and in my post of facts and witnesses (and several posts afterwards) you'll see that I say the entire case seems to come down to whether Martin double backed and attacked Zimmerman. So FINALLY, it's nice to see that you agree with me.
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dreachon Apr 30 2012, 02:38 PM Post #274
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IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 02:15 PM
I really dont care if you think I'm taking sides or not. If Zim is proven to have broken the current Florida law then he should pay the price and if he is proven to simply have defended himself during a physical confrontation and had broken no laws then he should be acquitted. Not sure how that is taking sides.
Classic. Again. What you think will or should happen is completely different from what you BELIEVE happened. Your posts wholly in favor of Zimmerman indicate you BELIEVE his story. My posts wholly in favor of Martin indicate I BELIEVE Zimmerman should go to jail. This is all based on what we currently know. The only difference between you and me is that I've publicly said my beliefs and you keep hiding behind this claim of being unbiased.
Edited by dreachon, Apr 30 2012, 02:39 PM.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 30 2012, 02:53 PM Post #275
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"Oh please. At no point have I ever said that or given that impression. I have stated multiple times that if Martin was beating up Zimmerman (and it appears he was) than the stand your ground law should apply to Martin before it applies to Zimmerman. And in no way did I even come close making your ridiculous claim in my post about facts and witnesses."

Just clarifying....

So if Zim initially followed/chased Martin and eventually lost him, went back to his vehicle and waited for the cops, and Martin came back to confront him , in your opinion, the stand your ground law applies to Martin and not Zimmermann? My opinion is that if Zimmerman did follow/chase Martin and lost him then the incident is over. If Martin did come back to confront Zimmermann then it is an entirely different matter. I think that is where we see things differently. IF Martin had "gotten away" initially then he should have just kept going. Why come back to a possible confrontation if he was so freaked out that Zimmermann was following him in the first place?

I can't wait to hear some of the details of this case in court. It is extremely hard to tell exactly what happened with the limited details that we have at this point.....which is what I've said from the beginning. The stand your ground law makes things complicated as far as what the initial police officers could have charged Zimmermann with. I am curious tho, what do you think the initial charge should have been since you feel that Zimmermann was just let off to walk free? Were those same officers still doing an investigation? Is it safe to assume that no matter the circumstances you feel that Zimmermann should have been charged and booked for something immediately after the incident? Without knowing exactly what happened right away, what would the charge have been? Do you just charge him with murder and see if you can prove it? If a person is innocent until proven guilty, don't you have to get statements and whatever evidence is to be found before you charge someone with a crime? You keep claiming that he should have been under arrest yet months later we still dont know if the current charges can be proved but yet you wanted him arrested on the spot?? There was a struggle and Zimm had obvious wounds from a struggle.....you get his statement and you investigate. Maybe the cops did botch the investigation?? Maybe they were professionally incompetent?? I still don't see how that means that they had enough to charge Zimmermann instantly and throw him in jail. If you have a car accident and a person in another car dies, should we charge you with vehicular manslaughter and throw you in jail until we find out exactly what happened?

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IUCOLTFAN Apr 30 2012, 02:57 PM Post #276
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Apr 30 2012, 02:38 PM
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Apr 30 2012, 02:15 PM
I really dont care if you think I'm taking sides or not. If Zim is proven to have broken the current Florida law then he should pay the price and if he is proven to simply have defended himself during a physical confrontation and had broken no laws then he should be acquitted. Not sure how that is taking sides.
Classic. Again. What you think will or should happen is completely different from what you BELIEVE happened. Your posts wholly in favor of Zimmerman indicate you BELIEVE his story. My posts wholly in favor of Martin indicate I BELIEVE Zimmerman should go to jail. This is all based on what we currently know. The only difference between you and me is that I've publicly said my beliefs and you keep hiding behind this claim of being unbiased.
Amazing that you "know' what I believe.........give me a fucking break.


I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED and therefore DIDN'T jump to biased conclusions like yourself. I guess. in your world, that makes you right and me wrong.
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Mr Gray Apr 30 2012, 03:05 PM Post #277
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dreach, if Zimmerman lost track of Martin and started back to his car, and then Martin came back and punched him in the nose, do you still think that the SYGL applies to Martin?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Apr 30 2012, 03:26 PM Post #278
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If Zimmerman headed back and was waiting by his car as Martin approaches him and then attacks him then it certainly muddies the waters for me. On one hand, the entire incident is still started by Zimmerman. On the other, he is absolutely defending himself and has a right to do so. On the 3rd hand, I'm not sure if he was ever in a situation where he felt his life was in danger and was forced to kill Martin. Honestly, I have no idea what law should apply to who here and my opinion would probably be that Zimmerman should suffer SOMETHING and given that he is in hiding and his life has forever been altered, I'd say that's good enough for me.

Colt, the outrage from the case stems from the police unwilling to arrest Zimmerman and calling him "squeaky clean" which he obviously isn't. It's not that I thought he should have been arrested immediately, it's that he was going to be arrested, period. It wasn't until the investigation was pulled from police that Zimmerman was charged. The police simply took Zimmerman at his word and called it a day. We're talking about a month and a half timeline here. That's ridiculous to me.

Now, the reason I hold my current belief is that it just doesn't seem to make any sense for Martin to run away from Zimmerman and then simply come back and beat him up. If the kid is running away, that's the decision he made. I can't imagine he went from being so scared as to run away to being so brazen to attack a guy just standing at his truck. What makes more logical sense is that Zimmerman either kept looking for Martin, guessed where he might be going and cut him off, or simply ran into him again.

I'm not on the jury. I can have an opinion and based on facts as they come out, change it. I don't have any qualms in admitting I was wrong and I don't have any problem with having an opinion based on what I think is the most logical scenario available to me.

Edited by dreachon, Apr 30 2012, 03:28 PM.
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Mr Gray Apr 30 2012, 03:29 PM Post #279
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Apr 30 2012, 03:26 PM
If Zimmerman headed back and was waiting by his car as Martin approaches him and then attacks him then it certainly muddies the waters for me. On one hand, the entire incident is still started by Zimmerman. On the other, he is absolutely defending himself and has a right to do so. On the 3rd hand, I'm not sure if he was ever in a situation where he felt his life was in danger and was forced to kill Martin. Honestly, I have no idea what law should apply to who here and my opinion would probably be that Zimmerman should suffer SOMETHING and given that he is in hiding and his life has forever been altered, I'd say that's good enough for me.

Colt, the outrage from the case stems from the police unwilling to arrest Zimmerman and calling him "squeaky clean" which he obviously isn't. It's not that I thought he should have been arrested immediately, it's that he was going to be arrested, period. It wasn't until the investigation was pulled from police that Zimmerman was charged. The police simply took Zimmerman at his word and called it a day. We're talking about a month and a half timeline here. That's ridiculous to me.

Now, the reason I hold my current belief is that it just doesn't seem to make any sense for Martin to run away from Zimmerman and then simply come back and beat him up. If the kid is running away, that's the decision he made. I can't imagine he went from being so scared as to run away to being so brazen to attack a guy just standing at his truck. What makes more logical sense is that Zimmerman either kept looking for Martin, guessed where he might be going and cut him off, or simply ran into him again.

I'm not on the jury. I can have an opinion and based on facts as they come out, change it. I don't have any qualms in admitting I was wrong and I don't have any problem with having an opinion based on what I think is the most logical scenario available to me.

I thought Martin told his girlfriend that he wasn't going to run away, rather he was just going to walk a little faster? If that is the case, that isn't the sign of a terrified kid is it?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Apr 30 2012, 03:33 PM Post #280
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Apr 30 2012, 03:29 PM
I thought Martin told his girlfriend that he wasn't going to run away, rather he was just going to walk a little faster? If that is the case, that isn't the sign of a terrified kid is it?
And Zimmerman said he ran. Maybe he was just walking really fast. Either way, it's fight or flight right? He chose flight. Not sure anyone flees and then comes back to fight, unprovoked.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 30 2012, 03:59 PM Post #281
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If Zimmerman headed back and was waiting by his car as Martin approaches him and then attacks him then it certainly muddies the waters for me. On one hand, the entire incident is still started by Zimmerman. On the other, he is absolutely defending himself and has a right to do so. On the 3rd hand, I'm not sure if he was ever in a situation where he felt his life was in danger and was forced to kill Martin. Honestly, I have no idea what law should apply to who here and my opinion would probably be that Zimmerman should suffer SOMETHING and given that he is in hiding and his life has forever been altered, I'd say that's good enough for me.

Colt, the outrage from the case stems from the police unwilling to arrest Zimmerman and calling him "squeaky clean" which he obviously isn't. It's not that I thought he should have been arrested immediately, it's that he was going to be arrested, period. It wasn't until the investigation was pulled from police that Zimmerman was charged. The police simply took Zimmerman at his word and called it a day. We're talking about a month and a half timeline here. That's ridiculous to me.

Now, the reason I hold my current belief is that it just doesn't seem to make any sense for Martin to run away from Zimmerman and then simply come back and beat him up. If the kid is running away, that's the decision he made. I can't imagine he went from being so scared as to run away to being so brazen to attack a guy just standing at his truck. What makes more logical sense is that Zimmerman either kept looking for Martin, guessed where he might be going and cut him off, or simply ran into him again.

I'm not on the jury. I can have an opinion and based on facts as they come out, change it. I don't have any qualms in admitting I was wrong and I don't have any problem with having an opinion based on what I think is the most logical scenario available to me.

So the police not initially arresting Zimmermann is your main beef? What if the officers/investigators from the scene felt they didn't have enough evidence to charge Zimmermann? Should they arrest him anyway and on what grounds? Due to the evidence (that we currently know of) or lack thereof AND the stand your ground law, the case doesn't seem so simple.

If Zimmermann is proven in court to have only defended himself legally, do you feel the 'SOMETHING' he suffered will be enough. Why would a presumed innocent man have to 'suffer SOMETHING' if it turns out that he broke no laws and committed no crime? It's ok to feel bad that a young life is lost but making a man pay a price before you know if he even did anything wrong is not what our judicial system is based on. I respect your opinion of what you think happened but it doesn't mean a guy should spend time in jail "just in case" he MAY have commited a crime. The burden of proof is on the state, not the defendant. Thats keeps innocent people from being railroaded by angry morality mobs. I dont want to see kids of any color die needlessly but I also don't want my rights taken away by the PC police. I guess in your eyes that makes me a bad person....
Edited by IUCOLTFAN, Apr 30 2012, 04:01 PM.
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brumdog44 Apr 30 2012, 04:12 PM Post #282
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I really dont care if you think I'm taking sides or not. If Zim is proven to have broken the current Florida law then he should pay the price and if he is proven to simply have defended himself during a physical confrontation and had broken no laws then he should be acquitted. Not sure how that is taking sides.
Classic. Again. What you think will or should happen is completely different from what you BELIEVE happened. Your posts wholly in favor of Zimmerman indicate you BELIEVE his story. My posts wholly in favor of Martin indicate I BELIEVE Zimmerman should go to jail. This is all based on what we currently know. The only difference between you and me is that I've publicly said my beliefs and you keep hiding behind this claim of being unbiased.
Amazing that you "know' what I believe.........give me a fucking break.


I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED and therefore DIDN'T jump to biased conclusions like yourself. I guess. in your world, that makes you right and me wrong.
This seems to be your MO....claim neutrality on everything while clearly believing and posting one side.

As long as you say "both sides of the aisle", it's okay, right?
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 30 2012, 04:14 PM Post #283
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Apr 30 2012, 04:12 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 02:57 PM
dreachon
Apr 30 2012, 02:38 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 02:15 PM
I really dont care if you think I'm taking sides or not. If Zim is proven to have broken the current Florida law then he should pay the price and if he is proven to simply have defended himself during a physical confrontation and had broken no laws then he should be acquitted. Not sure how that is taking sides.
Classic. Again. What you think will or should happen is completely different from what you BELIEVE happened. Your posts wholly in favor of Zimmerman indicate you BELIEVE his story. My posts wholly in favor of Martin indicate I BELIEVE Zimmerman should go to jail. This is all based on what we currently know. The only difference between you and me is that I've publicly said my beliefs and you keep hiding behind this claim of being unbiased.
Amazing that you "know' what I believe.........give me a fucking break.


I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED and therefore DIDN'T jump to biased conclusions like yourself. I guess. in your world, that makes you right and me wrong.
This seems to be your MO....claim neutrality on everything while clearly believing and posting one side.

As long as you say "both sides of the aisle", it's okay, right?
Show me anywhere in this thread where I said Zimmermann was innocent of a crime.
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TheBliver Apr 30 2012, 06:17 PM Post #284
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Apr 30 2012, 02:18 PM
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Apr 30 2012, 01:51 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 01:23 PM
Are you claiming that your initial reaction was not that Zimmerman was guilty of something? I haven't claimed anyone is guilty or innocent in this case. I've played devils advocate and said I could see it go either way.

I do have a question for you tho. Is it possible that Zim "chased" Martin and lost him and headed back to his vehicle (hence the 911 conversation about meeting the patrol car) and then Martin doubled back and confronted Zim while Martin was still on the phone with his girlfriend?
My initial reaction was that Zimmerman needed to be arrested and not walking around scot-free. And again, you saying the case could go either way and you believing whether Zimmerman is guilty or not are two entirely different things. Everyone says the case could go either way. Not everyone claims to be unbiased while solely arguing for one person in the case.

Yes, it's possible Martin double backed to Zimmerman while on the phone with his girlfriend. Does it make any sense? No. But it's possible.

I LOVE that you still put "chase" in quotation marks as if it's not clear whether Zimmerman got out of the car and went after Martin.


The entire case comes down to the physical confrontation and NONE of us on this board knows exactly what happened at that point.
bliver does....Zimmerman "baited" Martin into a confrontation so he could get his ass kicked and then shoot him. :D
Keep acting like a 12 year old...I gets more and more amusing.
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Mr Gray Apr 30 2012, 06:54 PM Post #285
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TheBliver
Apr 30 2012, 06:17 PM
Mr Gray
Apr 30 2012, 02:18 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 02:15 PM
dreachon
Apr 30 2012, 01:51 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 30 2012, 01:23 PM
Are you claiming that your initial reaction was not that Zimmerman was guilty of something? I haven't claimed anyone is guilty or innocent in this case. I've played devils advocate and said I could see it go either way.

I do have a question for you tho. Is it possible that Zim "chased" Martin and lost him and headed back to his vehicle (hence the 911 conversation about meeting the patrol car) and then Martin doubled back and confronted Zim while Martin was still on the phone with his girlfriend?
My initial reaction was that Zimmerman needed to be arrested and not walking around scot-free. And again, you saying the case could go either way and you believing whether Zimmerman is guilty or not are two entirely different things. Everyone says the case could go either way. Not everyone claims to be unbiased while solely arguing for one person in the case.

Yes, it's possible Martin double backed to Zimmerman while on the phone with his girlfriend. Does it make any sense? No. But it's possible.

I LOVE that you still put "chase" in quotation marks as if it's not clear whether Zimmerman got out of the car and went after Martin.


The entire case comes down to the physical confrontation and NONE of us on this board knows exactly what happened at that point.
bliver does....Zimmerman "baited" Martin into a confrontation so he could get his ass kicked and then shoot him. :D
Keep acting like a 12 year old...I gets more and more amusing.
Did you or did you not say that IS how it happened?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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