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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,570 Views)
dreachon Apr 12 2012, 09:16 AM Post #16
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I have no idea what's necessary for a 2nd degree murder charge.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 12 2012, 09:18 AM Post #17
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http://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes/homicide/second-degree-murder.html#Definition

A lot of "experts" are already fearing that she overcharged this case.....she should have used a grand jury.
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TheBliver Apr 12 2012, 09:21 AM Post #18
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Second degree murder? You can go from not having enough to charge after the incident to second degree murder? IMO, it will be hard to get a conviction and if they dont then we will see real trouble. Manslaughter would have been easier to convict on....wow.
You're the one who said over and over we didn't know enough of the "facts" of the case and to let it play out...well, we did and they are going for man 2...so I guess the evidence uncovered determined that. Also, I haven't heard of one single witness stating zimmerman was getting his head bashed in the ground, that was zimmerman's stance. I heard one witness state on tape what she heard that night and all accounts point to martin screaming for help and then after the shot the voice went silent. Also, another witness came forward stating the sanford PD didn't even want to question her about what she saw. She was followed up with and is an eye witness to zimmerman being on top of martin when he was shot...there was always enough to charge zimmerman, the sanford PD didn't want to, the state attorney does, thank god.
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean."
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 12 2012, 09:25 AM Post #19
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Apr 12 2012, 09:21 AM
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Apr 12 2012, 07:51 AM
Second degree murder? You can go from not having enough to charge after the incident to second degree murder? IMO, it will be hard to get a conviction and if they dont then we will see real trouble. Manslaughter would have been easier to convict on....wow.
You're the one who said over and over we didn't know enough of the "facts" of the case and to let it play out...well, we did and they are going for man 2...so I guess the evidence uncovered determined that. Also, I haven't heard of one single witness stating zimmerman was getting his head bashed in the ground, that was zimmerman's stance. I heard one witness state on tape what she heard that night and all accounts point to martin screaming for help and then after the shot the voice went silent. Also, another witness came forward stating the sanford PD didn't even want to question her about what she saw. She was followed up with and is an eye witness to zimmerman being on top of martin when he was shot...there was always enough to charge zimmerman, the sanford PD didn't want to, the state attorney does, thank god.
The Florida law makes things sketchy. "The voice went silent"??? Would Zimmermann still be yelling for help AFTER he shot Martin? What does that prove?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-12/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged-jail-20120412_1_face-murder-charges-today-show-accident

"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."


Interesting....
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eelbor Apr 12 2012, 09:33 AM Post #20
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Apr 12 2012, 09:13 AM
dreachon
Apr 12 2012, 09:01 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Apr 12 2012, 07:51 AM
Second degree murder? You can go from not having enough to charge after the incident to second degree murder? IMO, it will be hard to get a conviction and if they dont then we will see real trouble. Manslaughter would have been easier to convict on....wow.
I thought the investigation switched from the Sanford police to the State Attorney. That's part of the whole controversy. That the Sanford police were negligent in their handling of the case.
Maybe so but doesn't second degree murder charges mean that Zimmerman had to show INTENT to kill?? Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin from the start of this situation? IMO, it will be very hard to get a conviction on that unless someone comes forward with knowledge of Zimmerman clearly stating his intent before the incident. Try to quiet the community and ease the tension with a charge that you can't get a conviction on is dangerous. If she can't get a conviction, prepare for some huge fireworks.
With the help of wikipedia:

First Degree Murder is any murder that is willful and premeditated. Felony Murder is typically first degree.

Second Degree Murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.

Voluntary Manslaughter sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.


In addition, although I am not sure about Florida, in some states it is possible to be charged with 2nd degree murder and found innocent of this charge but found guilty on the lesser charge of mansalughter.
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TheBliver Apr 12 2012, 09:42 AM Post #21
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it's all very interesting, but the voice recognition after the fact wasn't zimmerman screaming that night. I agree, zimmerman wouldn't be yelling still, but the eye witness does corroborate that zimmerman was the one on top of martin, not the other way around. I'm just going with what I've read. I just moved my mom from FL to NC where she lived about 45 minutes away from sanford, so I've been interested in the case since it broke. At least I live in the mountains of western NC where people have the decency to pull their gun on you first and giving you options after that, not just start firing away.

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"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road."
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 12 2012, 09:53 AM Post #22
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TheBliver
Apr 12 2012, 09:42 AM
it's all very interesting, but the voice recognition after the fact wasn't zimmerman screaming that night. I agree, zimmerman wouldn't be yelling still, but the eye witness does corroborate that zimmerman was the one on top of martin, not the other way around. I'm just going with what I've read. I just moved my mom from FL to NC where she lived about 45 minutes away from sanford, so I've been interested in the case since it broke. At least I live in the mountains of western NC where people have the decency to pull their gun on you first and giving you options after that, not just start firing away.

I haven't read what you've evidently read.....did this witness see the entire thing unfold? Also, don't misconstrue my statements. I am NOT saying that Zimmermann did nothing wrong and am NOT claiming to have any facts to prove what happened either way. It just seems to me that a manslaughter conviction would have been much easier from the start and that, IMO, jail time will be the only thing to settle down the tension. If, for some reason, the state fails to convict, look the fuck out!
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Mr Gray Apr 12 2012, 10:15 AM Post #23
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TheBliver
Apr 12 2012, 09:42 AM
it's all very interesting, but the voice recognition after the fact wasn't zimmerman screaming that night. I agree, zimmerman wouldn't be yelling still, but the eye witness does corroborate that zimmerman was the one on top of martin, not the other way around. I'm just going with what I've read. I just moved my mom from FL to NC where she lived about 45 minutes away from sanford, so I've been interested in the case since it broke. At least I live in the mountains of western NC where people have the decency to pull their gun on you first and giving you options after that, not just start firing away.

bliver, let's be clear on the facts of your statements regarding the witnesses.

The witness that you are referring to said the following: She said she believes that the yell came from Martin, and heard them loudly arguing outside her window

Banfield (the CNN reporter) asked, when the gun went off, who it looked like was on top. The eyewitness answered that it looked like “the larger man,” meaning Zimmerman, was on top of Martin

I'm just not willing to convict a man based upon the idea that a woman can tell which person was yelling for help by listening through her window. Additionally, the "larger man" could have just as easily have been Martin, considering that I believe he is about 6" taller. There were several other distinctive and obvious differences between the physical appearance of Zimmerman and Martin (clothing, skin color...etc), that apparently she wasn't able to identify, which certainly hurts her credibility in being able to identify Martin as the one being on the bottom. link


Now....here is what the other eye witness is reporting

The guy on the bottom who I believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me help, help, and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.

This guy was able to identify clothing color, and also make a claim that the dead person was the person on top in the fight.....in terms of witness credibility, I believe he is the clear winner, and certainly not someone that you should ignore when forming your opinion. link
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TheBliver Apr 12 2012, 10:30 AM Post #24
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that's great, I just saw a witness come forward 2 days ago who stated it was zimmerman on top of martin, and told the sanford PD, who did nothing about it...everyone wanted to wait until the facts came out, they have, they are going for man 2...they wouldn't be if they didn't think they could win the case...the voice recognition that I read stated it could NOT have been zimmerman yelling...I think there is more witnesses than we are lead to believe.
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean."
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"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road."
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Mr Gray Apr 12 2012, 10:38 AM Post #25
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Apr 12 2012, 10:30 AM
that's great, I just saw a witness come forward 2 days ago who stated it was zimmerman on top of martin, and told the sanford PD, who did nothing about it...everyone wanted to wait until the facts came out, they have, they are going for man 2...they wouldn't be if they didn't think they could win the case...the voice recognition that I read stated it could NOT have been zimmerman yelling...I think there is more witnesses than we are lead to believe.
so are you personally disregarding the witness who was able to actually make a more clear identification of the individuals in the struggle?

How about the facts of the voice recognition.

Dr. James Wayman, a San Jose State University expert in the field of speech science, told The Daily Caller that he questions the grounds on which Owen based his analysis.

Wayman also said he would be willing to testify against the admissibility of Owen’s findings on the grounds that they don’t meet the criteria required for evidence in federal courts.

“There is no history of, or data on, the comparison of a questioned scream to a known speech sample,” Wayman said.

The problem, he said, is that the two voice samples were recorded in difficult acoustic conditions over different cell phones.

“Even if we were to have Mr. Zimmerman recreate the scream under identical conditions with the same cell phone,” Wayman explained, “it would be difficult to attribute the scream to him without a sample of a similar scream from Mr. Martin under the same conditions. This is clearly not possible.”
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 12 2012, 10:52 AM Post #26
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Bliver,

The facts have come out?? What makes you think that you now know the facts?
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TheBliver Apr 12 2012, 10:54 AM Post #27
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I don't, I'm responding to what I've read...period
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean."
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"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road."
Bob Marshall
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TheBliver Apr 12 2012, 10:55 AM Post #28
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the facts are prevelent enough to go for man 2 aren't they...
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean."
John Muir

"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road."
Bob Marshall
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IUCOLTFAN Apr 12 2012, 10:58 AM Post #29
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Apr 12 2012, 10:54 AM
I don't, I'm responding to what I've read...period
"everyone wanted to wait until the facts came out, they have, they are going for man 2..."


Ant the government had the "facts" on OJ too.....
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TheBliver Apr 12 2012, 11:04 AM Post #30
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great, bring up oj from 20 years ago...not the same case, no high profile figure, not even the same ballpark...but whatever, I'm done with this pissing match...I stated what I've read...you wanted facts, the facts are stating man 2...later days and better lays
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean."
John Muir

"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road."
Bob Marshall
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