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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
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Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,544 Views)
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TheBliver
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May 19 2012, 09:28 PM
Post #406
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my bias, I'm just being honest...I'm not arguing the case, I'm saying it's not that big of a deal because there is no evidence I've seen yet that says martin was using any drugs that night. There was no paraphernalia found anywhere, no residue from a joint on martin's hands. Again, foregone conclusion he had pot in his system. If you're talking character, then what about zimmerman's former co-worker stating that zimmerman racially targeted him and bullied him at work...Touche
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean." John Muir
"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road." Bob Marshall
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IUCOLTFAN
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May 19 2012, 09:38 PM
Post #407
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Tough case for either side, imo. I have said since the charges were filed that I felt like 2nd degree murder was a stretch. It all comes down to what the state can prove. What if the Sanford police were actually right and there really isn't enough evidence for a conviction? We may not like how the situation played out but what if it really was self-defense under the Florida law? That doesn't mean it is not tragic but it is a possibility. This is a very compelling case.
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MsJazen
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May 19 2012, 10:09 PM
Post #408
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- IUCOLTFAN
- May 19 2012, 09:27 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
....and you left out the part where Zimmerman got the shit kicked out of him. The boy was still alive when that happened. The girlfriend is hearsay, there are eyewitnesses that saw the "fight". You don't feel like those are important parts of the case? Look up....it clearly says George got a broken nose. In my post, I mean.
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Mr Gray
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May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
Post #409
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- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you. Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray
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May 19 2012, 11:08 PM
Post #410
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- TheBliver
- May 19 2012, 09:28 PM
my bias, I'm just being honest...I'm not arguing the case, I'm saying it's not that big of a deal because there is no evidence I've seen yet that says martin was using any drugs that night. There was no paraphernalia found anywhere, no residue from a joint on martin's hands. Again, foregone conclusion he had pot in his system. If you're talking character, then what about zimmerman's former co-worker stating that zimmerman racially targeted him and bullied him at work...Touche Gz's character flaws don't erase martins. Also we have no proof that he racially targeted someone. We do have proof of him defending a homeless black man though.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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MsJazen
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May 19 2012, 11:42 PM
Post #411
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- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake.
The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible?
There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far.
If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow.
Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system.
The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this:
If George had
a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun
If Trayvon had
a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself
Trayvon would have been alive today.
Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess.
Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
Edited by MsJazen, May 20 2012, 12:17 AM.
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MsJazen
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May 20 2012, 12:15 AM
Post #412
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- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:25 PM
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
No, but while you can pin the incitement on the media, you can't pin the initial action to them.
I have no idea where you are going with this, but of course the media had to have a story to start with. It doesn't change the fact that so many people jumped to insane conclusions. Do you feel that it was wrong for gz to profile Martin based on his skin color and draw conclusions as to his actions?
As far as I can remember, the media "jumped" on this case because a young boy was dead and the shooter was let loose without much investigation other than taking Zimmerman's word for the self defense explanation. I believe it developed from there, after the 911-call was released (among other things). In my opinion, at the start of this case most people found it disturbing that an unarmed teenager walking home from getting soda and candy ended up dead and the shooter ended up at home, in his own bed. Speaking about self defense. Why are so few people willing to defend Trayvon's right to defend himself when being confronted by a stranger?
The media and many others jumped to conclusions of race based murder. They further inflamed the situation by gz a "white" Hispanic and only showing old photos of both, making Martin look like a tiny little kid and gz look like a big strOng young man. I do not deny Martins right to defend himself and never have. Following somebody and asking them what they are doing isn't sufficient threat to justify pummeling someone in my opinion, if that is what happened.
My point was, that in the beginning, before the 911 call was released, the media reported that the 2 parents were demanding justice for their son. That the police at least investigate his death and not just take Zimmerman's word for what happened. The race thing and the pictures of both Zimmerman and Trayvon were reported afterwards, as the case progressed and more information was released. Following somebody may not be a sufficient threat to attack someone, if that is what happened. We still don't know that it is. I believe that somebody walking down the street on their way home is not a threat that would justify following them with a gun and confronting them either. That is something we do know happened.
You don't need "justification" to follow someone because it isn't a crime. Adding "with a gun" uses rhetoric to create emotion, but carrying a gun in this case doesn't change anything because gz was a legal carrier. Don't get me wrong. When I think of it from a parents perspective i know I would be furious if my daughter was followed for no apparent reason. I would also authorize my daughter to use force if necessary in the event that she felt threatened. If gz's story that he only left the truck to get a house number and then tm doubled back and attacked him is true, then that changes things significantly. It really boils down to those details for to determine guilt or innocence.
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George was released by police. Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
Good question. Actually when you leave out certain details, only cite a statement from one side of the fence (martins girlfriend), and blatently mis-state certain details to make one party look worse......yep, that's rhetoric!
Actually, I just now noticed it... You deleted part of my post in the quote. Was that meant as an example on "leaving out details"? You never answered my question, so here is the complete post (deleted sentence bolded here) that you quoted:
- Quote:
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Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts?
Actually, an innocent young boy is dead. That is what creates emotion in this case. Not anyone's words on a internet discussion forum.
In my opinion.
So, are you going to answer the question?
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MsJazen
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May 20 2012, 12:26 AM
Post #413
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Aaron? I'm waiting...
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TheBliver
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May 20 2012, 06:07 AM
Post #414
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- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:08 PM
- TheBliver
- May 19 2012, 09:28 PM
my bias, I'm just being honest...I'm not arguing the case, I'm saying it's not that big of a deal because there is no evidence I've seen yet that says martin was using any drugs that night. There was no paraphernalia found anywhere, no residue from a joint on martin's hands. Again, foregone conclusion he had pot in his system. If you're talking character, then what about zimmerman's former co-worker stating that zimmerman racially targeted him and bullied him at work...Touche
Gz's character flaws don't erase martins. Also we have no proof that he racially targeted someone. We do have proof of him defending a homeless black man though. you are full of yourself...again...where is the proof that he defended a homeless black man? I know his father said that, is that your proof? Also, his co-worker was interviewed by the FBI and stated he was racially targeted and bullied by GZ, that's more tangible than zimmerman dad saying he defended a homeless man...and I'm guessing other co-workers can back that up...yea, I'm the bias one
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean." John Muir
"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road." Bob Marshall
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dreachon
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May 20 2012, 08:34 AM
Post #415
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- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. HUH?
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TheBliver
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May 20 2012, 08:51 AM
Post #416
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- dreachon
- May 20 2012, 08:34 AM
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- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow.
HUH? 911 asked if he was following him, GZ said yes, 911 dispatch said, "you don't have to do that."
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean." John Muir
"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road." Bob Marshall
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IUCOLTFAN
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May 20 2012, 08:59 AM
Post #417
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- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 11:42 PM
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- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in. At what point do you feel that the rule of law was broken?
You may very well be right about him being on the phone with a girlfriend but I'm not real sure what that proves. Since no one can back up anything she says isn't it just hearsay?
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #418
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I have no idea where you are going with this, but of course the media had to have a story to start with. It doesn't change the fact that so many people jumped to insane conclusions. Do you feel that it was wrong for gz to profile Martin based on his skin color and draw conclusions as to his actions?
As far as I can remember, the media "jumped" on this case because a young boy was dead and the shooter was let loose without much investigation other than taking Zimmerman's word for the self defense explanation. I believe it developed from there, after the 911-call was released (among other things). In my opinion, at the start of this case most people found it disturbing that an unarmed teenager walking home from getting soda and candy ended up dead and the shooter ended up at home, in his own bed. Speaking about self defense. Why are so few people willing to defend Trayvon's right to defend himself when being confronted by a stranger?
The media and many others jumped to conclusions of race based murder. They further inflamed the situation by gz a "white" Hispanic and only showing old photos of both, making Martin look like a tiny little kid and gz look like a big strOng young man. I do not deny Martins right to defend himself and never have. Following somebody and asking them what they are doing isn't sufficient threat to justify pummeling someone in my opinion, if that is what happened.
My point was, that in the beginning, before the 911 call was released, the media reported that the 2 parents were demanding justice for their son. That the police at least investigate his death and not just take Zimmerman's word for what happened. The race thing and the pictures of both Zimmerman and Trayvon were reported afterwards, as the case progressed and more information was released. Following somebody may not be a sufficient threat to attack someone, if that is what happened. We still don't know that it is. I believe that somebody walking down the street on their way home is not a threat that would justify following them with a gun and confronting them either. That is something we do know happened.
You don't need "justification" to follow someone because it isn't a crime. Adding "with a gun" uses rhetoric to create emotion, but carrying a gun in this case doesn't change anything because gz was a legal carrier. Don't get me wrong. When I think of it from a parents perspective i know I would be furious if my daughter was followed for no apparent reason. I would also authorize my daughter to use force if necessary in the event that she felt threatened. If gz's story that he only left the truck to get a house number and then tm doubled back and attacked him is true, then that changes things significantly. It really boils down to those details for to determine guilt or innocence.
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George was released by police. Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
Good question. Actually when you leave out certain details, only cite a statement from one side of the fence (martins girlfriend), and blatently mis-state certain details to make one party look worse......yep, that's rhetoric!
Actually, I just now noticed it... You deleted part of my post in the quote. Was that meant as an example on "leaving out details"?
You never answered my question, so here is the complete post (deleted sentence bolded here) that you quoted: - Quote:
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Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts?
Actually, an innocent young boy is dead. That is what creates emotion in this case. Not anyone's words on a internet discussion forum.
In my opinion.
So, are you going to answer the question? It is common practice on here to only quote the portion of a persons post to which you are replying. It helps weed out confusion in your rebuttal. I was not yet replying to your comment about emotion
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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TheBliver
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May 20 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #419
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Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
At what point do you feel that the rule of law was broken? You may very well be right about him being on the phone with a girlfriend but I'm not real sure what that proves. Since no one can back up anything she says isn't it just hearsay? I don't think it's simply hearsay. Phone records show the two were on the phone together. That's as good as someone saying they heard something from out their window but didn't see anything transpire. it's not second hand knowledge from someone else.
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean." John Muir
"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road." Bob Marshall
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #420
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Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
At what point do you feel that the rule of law was broken? You may very well be right about him being on the phone with a girlfriend but I'm not real sure what that proves. Since no one can back up anything she says isn't it just hearsay?
I don't think it's simply hearsay. Phone records show the two were on the phone together. That's as good as someone saying they heard something from out their window but didn't see anything transpire. it's not second hand knowledge from someone else. I agree the fact that they had a conversation right up to the point of conflict isn't in question. She would certainly be considered as strong a witness as the other audible witnesses. I believe a few minutes passed from the end of the call to the 911 call, so her testimony still doesn't tell me who and how the fight started.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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