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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
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Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,543 Views)
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 12:05 PM
Post #421
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- TheBliver
- May 20 2012, 06:07 AM
- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:08 PM
- TheBliver
- May 19 2012, 09:28 PM
my bias, I'm just being honest...I'm not arguing the case, I'm saying it's not that big of a deal because there is no evidence I've seen yet that says martin was using any drugs that night. There was no paraphernalia found anywhere, no residue from a joint on martin's hands. Again, foregone conclusion he had pot in his system. If you're talking character, then what about zimmerman's former co-worker stating that zimmerman racially targeted him and bullied him at work...Touche
Gz's character flaws don't erase martins. Also we have no proof that he racially targeted someone. We do have proof of him defending a homeless black man though.
you are full of yourself...again...where is the proof that he defended a homeless black man? I know his father said that, is that your proof? Also, his co-worker was interviewed by the FBI and stated he was racially targeted and bullied by GZ, that's more tangible than zimmerman dad saying he defended a homeless man...and I'm guessing other co-workers can back that up...yea, I'm the bias one I'm not bias at all. It comes down to 2 big "ifs" for me. If gz caught up to tm and instigated the fight either physically or through verbal threats or harassment, then he is at fault and should at least be charged with manslaughter. If gz went back to his car while tm doubled back and assaulted gz, then he had a right to dEfend himself, which includes lethal force if his life was in danger.
Bliver you are by far and away the most bias poster on this subject. Just look at your various ridiculous assertions to date. I realize you have corrected many of them and that's fine. To claim that you aren't bias, however, is absurd.
I want justice based on the facts from both sides. You seem only interested in the facts from tm's side.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #422
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- dreachon
- May 20 2012, 08:34 AM
- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow.
HUH? "you don't need to do that" is a far cry from "stay in the car". Gz absolutely should have stayed, but he wasn't under police order to do so.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars
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May 20 2012, 12:28 PM
Post #423
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3 in a row
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On the radio I heard a report saw the gun shot occurred from very close range, consistent with gz's version of the fight.
At what level of ass-kicking was gz justified to use his gun to defend himself? If he was a vigilante looking to shoot someone, he would have shot before getting his ass kicked.
For me personally, kicking gz's ass makes tm less innocent.
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dreachon
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May 20 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #424
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- Mr Gray
- May 20 2012, 12:09 PM
- dreachon
- May 20 2012, 08:34 AM
- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow.
HUH?
"you don't need to do that" is a far cry from "stay in the car". Gz absolutely should have stayed, but he wasn't under police order to do so. Oh please.
"are you following?" "yes" "ok we don't need you to do that"
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"are you following?" "yes" "ok don't do that"
You're looking at the exact wordage and completely ignoring the meaning. It would be the same if the 911 operator replied
"please don't do that" "you shouldn't do that"
etc, etc.
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #425
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- HoosierLars
- May 20 2012, 12:28 PM
On the radio I heard a report saw the gun shot occurred from very close range, consistent with gz's version of the fight.
At what level of ass-kicking was gz justified to use his gun to defend himself? If he was a vigilante looking to shoot someone, he would have shot before getting his ass kicked.
For me personally, kicking gz's ass makes tm less innocent. Here is the abc report which talks about the witnesses and the gunshot proximity.
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16371852
Edited by Mr Gray, May 20 2012, 01:15 PM.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon
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May 20 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #426
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- Mr Gray
- May 20 2012, 11:53 AM
- TheBliver
- May 20 2012, 11:03 AM
- IUCOLTFAN
- May 20 2012, 08:59 AM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 11:42 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
At what point do you feel that the rule of law was broken? You may very well be right about him being on the phone with a girlfriend but I'm not real sure what that proves. Since no one can back up anything she says isn't it just hearsay?
I don't think it's simply hearsay. Phone records show the two were on the phone together. That's as good as someone saying they heard something from out their window but didn't see anything transpire. it's not second hand knowledge from someone else.
I agree the fact that they had a conversation right up to the point of conflict isn't in question. She would certainly be considered as strong a witness as the other audible witnesses. I believe a few minutes passed from the end of the call to the 911 call, so her testimony still doesn't tell me who and how the fight started. Her testimony as far as we know is that Zimmerman was suddenly back or reappeared indicating that he continued to search for Martin or at the very least they happen to run into each other again. She also said she heard Martin say,
"Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman reply "What are you doing around here"
That's not going to help the defense when the prosecution starts asking why Zimmerman didn't identify himself to Martin at some point as the neigherhood watch leader and say that he had called 911.
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 12:58 PM
Post #427
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- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 11:42 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in. Msjaz, If tm did in fact double back into the situation, ask gz if he had a problem, and then punch him in the nose and proceed to whoop his ass badly, hitting him and smashing his head on the ground, do you think gz is justified in defending himself?
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 01:21 PM
Post #428
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- dreachon
- May 20 2012, 12:55 PM
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- May 20 2012, 11:53 AM
- TheBliver
- May 20 2012, 11:03 AM
- IUCOLTFAN
- May 20 2012, 08:59 AM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 11:42 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 19 2012, 11:05 PM
- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
At what point do you feel that the rule of law was broken? You may very well be right about him being on the phone with a girlfriend but I'm not real sure what that proves. Since no one can back up anything she says isn't it just hearsay?
I don't think it's simply hearsay. Phone records show the two were on the phone together. That's as good as someone saying they heard something from out their window but didn't see anything transpire. it's not second hand knowledge from someone else.
I agree the fact that they had a conversation right up to the point of conflict isn't in question. She would certainly be considered as strong a witness as the other audible witnesses. I believe a few minutes passed from the end of the call to the 911 call, so her testimony still doesn't tell me who and how the fight started.
Her testimony as far as we know is that Zimmerman was suddenly back or reappeared indicating that he continued to search for Martin or at the very least they happen to run into each other again. She also said she heard Martin say, "Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman reply "What are you doing around here" That's not going to help the defense when the prosecution starts asking why Zimmerman didn't identify himself to Martin at some point as the neigherhood watch leader and say that he had called 911. I could be wrong on this, but I thought gz didn't refute that he asked tm what he was doing. From there tm runs which seems to be where the girlfriends story ends and the questions begin.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon
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May 20 2012, 01:46 PM
Post #429
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- Mr Gray
- May 20 2012, 01:21 PM
I could be wrong on this, but I thought gz didn't refute that he asked tm what he was doing. From there tm runs which seems to be where the girlfriends story ends and the questions begin. I think you're wrong on that. Zimmerman said that Martin approached him. Zimmerman asked what he was doing and then Martin attacked him. Martin ran while Zimmerman was in the car before they ever said anything to each other. To me, the girlfriend's testimony is the most important one. She's the only person other than Zimmerman himself that can say whether Martin double backed to find Zimmerman or whether Zimmerman had found Martin. She's currently saying the latter happened.
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brumdog44
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May 20 2012, 02:47 PM
Post #430
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I have no doubt that Zimmerman will be acquitted. I don't think the persecution has much chance of refuting his version of the story with no eyewitness account.
To me it has been about what is ethically right and not legally.
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Mr Gray
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May 20 2012, 02:53 PM
Post #431
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- brumdog44
- May 20 2012, 02:47 PM
I have no doubt that Zimmerman will be acquitted. I don't think the persecution has much chance of refuting his version of the story with no eyewitness account.
To me it has been about what is ethically right and not legally. I can agree with that. As a parent, I would have a hard time not finding gz at a later date.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Jazen
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May 20 2012, 03:17 PM
Post #432
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- Mr Gray
- May 20 2012, 02:53 PM
As a parent, I would have a hard time not finding gz at a later date. If GZ is acquitted, he's going to have to worry about more than one set of parents. He'll need to find Casey Anthony and shack up with her.
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TheBliver
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May 20 2012, 03:46 PM
Post #433
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- brumdog44
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I have no doubt that Zimmerman will be acquitted. I don't think the persecution has much chance of refuting his version of the story with no eyewitness account.
To me it has been about what is ethically right and not legally. although I can't say I have no doubt, I agree. For me, it's about what GZ did prior to the confrontation that set this whole thing into motion. I stated previously that manslaughter would have been the more appropriate charge, I still think so, at least then there would have been a better chance at justice for TM.
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"Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean." John Muir
"Swift or smooth, broad as the Hudson or narrow enough to scrape your gunwales, every river is a world of its own, unique in pattern and personality. Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road." Bob Marshall
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MsJazen
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May 20 2012, 03:59 PM
Post #434
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- Mr Gray
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- MsJazen
- May 19 2012, 09:24 PM
Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
Msjaz, If tm did in fact double back into the situation, ask gz if he had a problem, and then punch him in the nose and proceed to whoop his ass badly, hitting him and smashing his head on the ground, do you think gz is justified in defending himself? You can play the IF game all day. It is really obvious that you are wanting so bad for Zimmerman to be justified and are looking for any IFs that in your opinion would make it so. Last night you said that you would authorize your own daughter "to use force if necessary in the event that she felt threatened" so why not Trayvon? You never did answer that either, just saying that following someone is not illegal.
So. What IF Zimmerman showed/brought out his gun when he confronted Trayvon. Does that give Trayvon the right to defend himself? What IF Trayvon tried to walk away and Zimmerman stopped him by grabbing his arm/clothes? Both of these IFs would be much more consistent with their behaviours leading up to that point (Trayvon being the one trying to get home and Zimmerman not wanting another one of "these assholes" to get away). Have you even bothered to look at those IFs?
As for it being common practice to delete the part of someone's post that you don't want to answer - the sentence you deleted was a direct response to your accusing me of "bringing emotion into this". You didn't answer because you didn't want to. The question I asked was if that was your example of leaving out details (another thing you accused me of), something you didn't want to answer either. I guess my questions are too hard for you?
The whole situation was created by Zimmerman. He is responsible for Trayvon's death. Should Florida law make him justified in shooting an innocent boy like that, then anyone could walk up to a person and provoke them to attack - and then shoot them dead.
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IUCOLTFAN
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May 20 2012, 05:57 PM
Post #435
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Trayvon was walking back to his father's house, doing nothing wrong. George followed Trayvon. He had a gun with him. George called 911. 911 told George he shouldn't follow Trayvon. George followed him anyway. George confronted Trayvon (girlfriend's statement). George got a broken nose. Trayvon got shot. Trayvon died. George said it was self defense. George was released by police.
Rhetorics or facts? In my opinion.
There. Fixed it for you.
Not fixed. Still missing relevent parts and mis-stating the facts. 911 did not tell him that he shouldn't follow. You include the girlfriends statement but leave out eye witness accounts and zimmermans statement. How about the witness that said Martin was beating gz "mma style". Or the black eyes, cut head, and martins bruised knuckles. Those are also facts, and when you leave them out you are in fact displaying spin or rhetoric.
Sorry, hit the post reply button by mistake. The eye witnesses, is not there, you are correct. My mistake. At this point, some of those statements are not consistent with what the actual evidence shows. If George had Trayvon on top of him, how come there is no blood from the gun shot wound on the front of his clothes in the pictures the police took that night. Also, George claimed to have his head bashed on the cement side walk, but Trayvon's body was found in the middle of a grassy area. How is that possible? There is also no evidence of any black eyes that I have seen. People said he had black eyes, yes. But no evidence so far. If you read my post, both the broken nose and George's claim of self defense is in there. The 911 call can be found on the internet, if you want to listen to it. At least, to my ears, he was told not to follow. Did you know that George Zimmerman had prescribed medicine that could make a person aggressive? Of course, the police never tested his blood, so we will never know if he had them in his system. The fact of it all, to me, comes down to this: If George had a) not followed Trayvon b) not had a gun on him c) not confronted Trayvon d) not shot the gun If Trayvon had a) stayed in and not walked in the rain "looking suspicious" b) not defended himself Trayvon would have been alive today. Who I think is responsible? Feel free to guess. Oh, and about the girlfriend...cell phone records prove that he was on the phone with her until a minute or two before the 911 calls started coming in.
Msjaz, If tm did in fact double back into the situation, ask gz if he had a problem, and then punch him in the nose and proceed to whoop his ass badly, hitting him and smashing his head on the ground, do you think gz is justified in defending himself?
You can play the IF game all day. It is really obvious that you are wanting so bad for Zimmerman to be justified and are looking for any IFs that in your opinion would make it so. Last night you said that you would authorize your own daughter "to use force if necessary in the event that she felt threatened" so why not Trayvon? You never did answer that either, just saying that following someone is not illegal. So. What IF Zimmerman showed/brought out his gun when he confronted Trayvon. Does that give Trayvon the right to defend himself? What IF Trayvon tried to walk away and Zimmerman stopped him by grabbing his arm/clothes? Both of these IFs would be much more consistent with their behaviours leading up to that point (Trayvon being the one trying to get home and Zimmerman not wanting another one of "these assholes" to get away). Have you even bothered to look at those IFs? As for it being common practice to delete the part of someone's post that you don't want to answer - the sentence you deleted was a direct response to your accusing me of "bringing emotion into this". You didn't answer because you didn't want to. The question I asked was if that was your example of leaving out details (another thing you accused me of), something you didn't want to answer either. I guess my questions are too hard for you? The whole situation was created by Zimmerman. He is responsible for Trayvon's death. Should Florida law make him justified in shooting an innocent boy like that, then anyone could walk up to a person and provoke them to attack - and then shoot them dead. I guess I'll ask again. At what point do you feel the law was broken in this situation?
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