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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,525 Views)
HoosierLars Dec 12 2012, 10:41 PM Post #691
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brumdog44
Dec 12 2012, 10:28 PM
What I've learned:

but 'we don't need you to do that' from a 911 operator means pursue.
No, we've learned that "we don't need you to do that" does not necessary mean "don't do that."
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HoosierLars Dec 12 2012, 10:50 PM Post #692
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When citizens are afraid to get involved, criminals are emboldened and become more successful. I support neighborhood watches, and think they can have a chilling effect on crime rates. This is a major reason why I'm not as eager to convict GZ as most posters here. If this senseless killing results in less citizen involvement and more crime, society is the big loser.

I agree that if GZ wasn't carrying a gun and didn't follow TM, a 17 year old kid would still be alive today. There are other events that would have probably avoided this tragedy:

1) Multiple burglaries hadn't been previously committed in GZ's neighborhood by black men wearing hoodies.
2) TM hadn't been kicked out of school for smoking pot.
3) TM didn't decide to take the offensive against GZ.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2012, 07:21 AM Post #693
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Dec 12 2012, 10:19 PM
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Dec 12 2012, 10:13 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 10:05 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 09:14 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 09:10 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 09:07 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Dec 12 2012, 08:48 AM
From what I've read, GZ didnt assualt TM.....TM confronted GZ and proceeded to kick his ass....
So you've read Zimmerman's account of the story. Congratulations.
I think there are multiple witness accounts that back this up dreach.
Really? Multiple witness accounts that saw Martin confront Zimmerman, start a fight and then get shot? Please link.

the witnesses saw that Martin was kicking Zimmerman's ass. Who started the confrontation wasn't witnessed, but what is it that you BELIEVE Zimmerman could have done to provoke a potentially fatal beating?
So there's not multiple witness reports that back up Zimmerman's claim that Martin confronted him and started beating him. Got it.

I believe following Martin in a car and then getting out and chasing him is enough for Martin to defend himself and beat up Zimmerman.
really? So you believe fatal violence was necessary from Martin? He couldn't have gotten away?
Direct quote. You completely ignore the part where you said it WAS fatal violence.

So you use 'potentially fatal beating' in one post and then turn around and call it 'fatal violence'....yet give eel a hard time for saying that he 'didn't use your exact words'.

Funny how you want us to follow exact words when you can't even follow yours.
Your absolutely pathetic here brum. My post was a direct reply to eels post where he even quoted me saying "potential violence" and then you grab a completely different post of mine and call me a liar. What a fucking spineless move on your part.

Let's make sure we all can see EXACTLY what happened here. Below is the screenshot from the conversation between me and Eel. I specifically talk about potentially fatal violence. Eel responds by asking me when the violence became fatal, while actually quoting my statement where I said "potentially fatal". I directly respond to that by pointing out that I said "potentiall violent", and brum, very immaturely, calls me a LIAR.

Posted Image

If anyone on here can't admit that brum was in the wrong here and should retract his statement, you truly can't get past your hatred for me to get to a place where reasonable discussion is possible.
Edited by Mr Gray, Dec 13 2012, 07:52 AM.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 13 2012, 07:47 AM Post #694
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You tell someone to 'troll on' after claiming you didn't call someone fatal when you did.

Troll on.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2012, 07:56 AM Post #695
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Dec 12 2012, 10:26 PM
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Dec 12 2012, 09:48 PM
getting your head slammed into just "regular" concrete by someone who is on top of you and also punching you in the face and you can't get away is no big deal.

It's amazing the assumptions you make about Zimmerman's behavior, but continue to downplay Zimmerman's injuries as a result of Martin's assault, which was backed up by witness accounts.
I wonder how hard you have to get your head "slammed" into concrete to get 2 scrapes, no visible bruises, no concussion and no stitches. Man, what a life threatening beating!
dreach, when someone is on top of you beating you and you can't get away, it is potentially fatal...how can you argue otherwise? Because he didn't have a concussion....yet? I wish you would take a step back and look at this portion of the situation a little more objectively. It doesn't mean that your other points are invalid as to how they got to the fighting part...but to say that the beating couldn't have had fatal consequences is absurd.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Dec 13 2012, 09:12 AM Post #696
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Dec 12 2012, 09:48 PM
getting your head slammed into just "regular" concrete by someone who is on top of you and also punching you in the face and you can't get away is no big deal.

It's amazing the assumptions you make about Zimmerman's behavior, but continue to downplay Zimmerman's injuries as a result of Martin's assault, which was backed up by witness accounts.
I wonder how hard you have to get your head "slammed" into concrete to get 2 scrapes, no visible bruises, no concussion and no stitches. Man, what a life threatening beating!
dreach, when someone is on top of you beating you and you can't get away, it is potentially fatal...how can you argue otherwise? Because he didn't have a concussion....yet? I wish you would take a step back and look at this portion of the situation a little more objectively. It doesn't mean that your other points are invalid as to how they got to the fighting part...but to say that the beating couldn't have had fatal consequences is absurd.
The injuries sustained don't point to a potentially fatal beating. Now if you want to argue that had Zimmerman not done anything than Martin would have beat him and beat him and beat him until he was dead, then fine. But that point is a long, LONG way from where the fight was currently at. Zimmerman response to shoot was excessive. Maybe he was so scared he thought he was in a lot more danger than he actually was. I dunno.

And keep in mind, to me, it doesn't even matter. Because I believe the stand your ground law should apply to Martin, the kid carrying skittles on his way home.
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eelbor Dec 13 2012, 09:56 AM Post #697
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Dec 12 2012, 10:13 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 08:48 AM
From what I've read, GZ didnt assualt TM.....TM confronted GZ and proceeded to kick his ass....
So you've read Zimmerman's account of the story. Congratulations.
I think there are multiple witness accounts that back this up dreach.
Really? Multiple witness accounts that saw Martin confront Zimmerman, start a fight and then get shot? Please link.

the witnesses saw that Martin was kicking Zimmerman's ass. Who started the confrontation wasn't witnessed, but what is it that you BELIEVE Zimmerman could have done to provoke a potentially fatal beating?
So there's not multiple witness reports that back up Zimmerman's claim that Martin confronted him and started beating him. Got it.

I believe following Martin in a car and then getting out and chasing him is enough for Martin to defend himself and beat up Zimmerman.
really? So you believe fatal violence was necessary from Martin? He couldn't have gotten away?
Direct quote. You completely ignore the part where you said it WAS fatal violence.

So you use 'potentially fatal beating' in one post and then turn around and call it 'fatal violence'....yet give eel a hard time for saying that he 'didn't use your exact words'.

Funny how you want us to follow exact words when you can't even follow yours.
Your absolutely pathetic here brum. My post was a direct reply to eels post where he even quoted me saying "potential violence" and then you grab a completely different post of mine and call me a liar. What a fucking spineless move on your part.

Let's make sure we all can see EXACTLY what happened here. Below is the screenshot from the conversation between me and Eel. I specifically talk about potentially fatal violence. Eel responds by asking me when the violence became fatal, while actually quoting my statement where I said "potentially fatal". I directly respond to that by pointing out that I said "potentiall violent", and brum, very immaturely, calls me a LIAR.

If anyone on here can't admit that brum was in the wrong here and should retract his statement, you truly can't get past your hatred for me to get to a place where reasonable discussion is possible.
I think when you go back as Brum suggests and read all you words, rather than the one post you would like to focus on, you will see Brum is quite correct. For someone who is talks the talk about how much words matter, you sure don't walk the walk. By the way, a link to your post. I expect you apology any time now Aaron.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


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Mr Gray Dec 13 2012, 10:15 AM Post #698
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Dec 12 2012, 10:26 PM
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Dec 12 2012, 09:48 PM
getting your head slammed into just "regular" concrete by someone who is on top of you and also punching you in the face and you can't get away is no big deal.

It's amazing the assumptions you make about Zimmerman's behavior, but continue to downplay Zimmerman's injuries as a result of Martin's assault, which was backed up by witness accounts.
I wonder how hard you have to get your head "slammed" into concrete to get 2 scrapes, no visible bruises, no concussion and no stitches. Man, what a life threatening beating!
dreach, when someone is on top of you beating you and you can't get away, it is potentially fatal...how can you argue otherwise? Because he didn't have a concussion....yet? I wish you would take a step back and look at this portion of the situation a little more objectively. It doesn't mean that your other points are invalid as to how they got to the fighting part...but to say that the beating couldn't have had fatal consequences is absurd.
The injuries sustained don't point to a potentially fatal beating. Now if you want to argue that had Zimmerman not done anything than Martin would have beat him and beat him and beat him until he was dead, then fine. But that point is a long, LONG way from where the fight was currently at. Zimmerman response to shoot was excessive. Maybe he was so scared he thought he was in a lot more danger than he actually was. I dunno.

And keep in mind, to me, it doesn't even matter. Because I believe the stand your ground law should apply to Martin, the kid carrying skittles on his way home.
Now we're getting somewhere rational. Neither of us know if Martin would have continued beating Zimmerman to death. I'm a little more sensitive to that because I know someone (2nd hand) who was beaten to death in a fight and it lasted less than 30 seconds, so I don't agree that it was a LONG way off as you put it. For that same reason, I think it's difficult for you or I to say when Zimmerman's response (shooting) would become appropriate vs. excessive. For me personally, the second that I feel my life is in imminent danger, lethal force is no longer excessive......and I believe the law is roughly written around that concept.

I understand what you are saying about the SYG law being applied to Martin. I think I have asked you this before and you possibly responded and I missed it, but what do you think GZ did to justify Martin's actions under SYG?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2012, 10:17 AM Post #699
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Dec 13 2012, 09:56 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 10:19 PM
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Dec 12 2012, 10:13 AM
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Dec 12 2012, 08:48 AM
From what I've read, GZ didnt assualt TM.....TM confronted GZ and proceeded to kick his ass....
So you've read Zimmerman's account of the story. Congratulations.
I think there are multiple witness accounts that back this up dreach.
Really? Multiple witness accounts that saw Martin confront Zimmerman, start a fight and then get shot? Please link.

the witnesses saw that Martin was kicking Zimmerman's ass. Who started the confrontation wasn't witnessed, but what is it that you BELIEVE Zimmerman could have done to provoke a potentially fatal beating?
So there's not multiple witness reports that back up Zimmerman's claim that Martin confronted him and started beating him. Got it.

I believe following Martin in a car and then getting out and chasing him is enough for Martin to defend himself and beat up Zimmerman.
really? So you believe fatal violence was necessary from Martin? He couldn't have gotten away?
Direct quote. You completely ignore the part where you said it WAS fatal violence.

So you use 'potentially fatal beating' in one post and then turn around and call it 'fatal violence'....yet give eel a hard time for saying that he 'didn't use your exact words'.

Funny how you want us to follow exact words when you can't even follow yours.
Your absolutely pathetic here brum. My post was a direct reply to eels post where he even quoted me saying "potential violence" and then you grab a completely different post of mine and call me a liar. What a fucking spineless move on your part.

Let's make sure we all can see EXACTLY what happened here. Below is the screenshot from the conversation between me and Eel. I specifically talk about potentially fatal violence. Eel responds by asking me when the violence became fatal, while actually quoting my statement where I said "potentially fatal". I directly respond to that by pointing out that I said "potentiall violent", and brum, very immaturely, calls me a LIAR.

Posted Image

If anyone on here can't admit that brum was in the wrong here and should retract his statement, you truly can't get past your hatred for me to get to a place where reasonable discussion is possible.
I think when you go back as Brum suggests and read all you words, rather than the one post you would like to focus on, you will see Brum is quite correct. For someone who is talks the talk about how much words matter, you sure don't walk the walk. By the way, a link to your post. I expect you apology any time now Aaron.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833
eel, if that is the post that you were replying to, then why did you quote and reply to my post which I cited above? That makes absolutely no sense???
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2012, 10:18 AM Post #700
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Dec 13 2012, 07:47 AM
You tell someone to 'troll on' after claiming you didn't call someone fatal when you did.

Troll on.
are you just going to ignore the quote that eel was directly replying to?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor Dec 13 2012, 10:33 AM Post #701
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Dec 12 2012, 09:07 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I think there are multiple witness accounts that back this up dreach.
Really? Multiple witness accounts that saw Martin confront Zimmerman, start a fight and then get shot? Please link.

the witnesses saw that Martin was kicking Zimmerman's ass. Who started the confrontation wasn't witnessed, but what is it that you BELIEVE Zimmerman could have done to provoke a potentially fatal beating?
So there's not multiple witness reports that back up Zimmerman's claim that Martin confronted him and started beating him. Got it.

I believe following Martin in a car and then getting out and chasing him is enough for Martin to defend himself and beat up Zimmerman.
really? So you believe fatal violence was necessary from Martin? He couldn't have gotten away?
Direct quote. You completely ignore the part where you said it WAS fatal violence.

So you use 'potentially fatal beating' in one post and then turn around and call it 'fatal violence'....yet give eel a hard time for saying that he 'didn't use your exact words'.

Funny how you want us to follow exact words when you can't even follow yours.
Your absolutely pathetic here brum. My post was a direct reply to eels post where he even quoted me saying "potential violence" and then you grab a completely different post of mine and call me a liar. What a fucking spineless move on your part.

Let's make sure we all can see EXACTLY what happened here. Below is the screenshot from the conversation between me and Eel. I specifically talk about potentially fatal violence. Eel responds by asking me when the violence became fatal, while actually quoting my statement where I said "potentially fatal". I directly respond to that by pointing out that I said "potentiall violent", and brum, very immaturely, calls me a LIAR.


If anyone on here can't admit that brum was in the wrong here and should retract his statement, you truly can't get past your hatred for me to get to a place where reasonable discussion is possible.
I think when you go back as Brum suggests and read all you words, rather than the one post you would like to focus on, you will see Brum is quite correct. For someone who is talks the talk about how much words matter, you sure don't walk the walk. By the way, a link to your post. I expect you apology any time now Aaron.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833
eel, if that is the post that you were replying to, then why did you quote and reply to my post which I cited above? That makes absolutely no sense???
When you said in the gun thread that you thought I supported the gun being at fault, although it was never in writing anywhere, you apparently think words don't mean what they say. In this thread, words always mean exactly literally what they say and we are not allowed to think differently. In the gun thread, everything that is said in that thread is used to formulate our subsequent responses. In this thread, we are only allowed to respond to the very last thing said and must complete ignore all comments up to that point? Do you just make up a rule set at random for each political discussion you enter?
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2012, 10:51 AM Post #702
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Dec 12 2012, 10:19 PM
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Dec 12 2012, 09:10 AM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Really? Multiple witness accounts that saw Martin confront Zimmerman, start a fight and then get shot? Please link.

the witnesses saw that Martin was kicking Zimmerman's ass. Who started the confrontation wasn't witnessed, but what is it that you BELIEVE Zimmerman could have done to provoke a potentially fatal beating?
So there's not multiple witness reports that back up Zimmerman's claim that Martin confronted him and started beating him. Got it.

I believe following Martin in a car and then getting out and chasing him is enough for Martin to defend himself and beat up Zimmerman.
really? So you believe fatal violence was necessary from Martin? He couldn't have gotten away?
Direct quote. You completely ignore the part where you said it WAS fatal violence.

So you use 'potentially fatal beating' in one post and then turn around and call it 'fatal violence'....yet give eel a hard time for saying that he 'didn't use your exact words'.

Funny how you want us to follow exact words when you can't even follow yours.
Your absolutely pathetic here brum. My post was a direct reply to eels post where he even quoted me saying "potential violence" and then you grab a completely different post of mine and call me a liar. What a fucking spineless move on your part.

Let's make sure we all can see EXACTLY what happened here. Below is the screenshot from the conversation between me and Eel. I specifically talk about potentially fatal violence. Eel responds by asking me when the violence became fatal, while actually quoting my statement where I said "potentially fatal". I directly respond to that by pointing out that I said "potentiall violent", and brum, very immaturely, calls me a LIAR.


If anyone on here can't admit that brum was in the wrong here and should retract his statement, you truly can't get past your hatred for me to get to a place where reasonable discussion is possible.
I think when you go back as Brum suggests and read all you words, rather than the one post you would like to focus on, you will see Brum is quite correct. For someone who is talks the talk about how much words matter, you sure don't walk the walk. By the way, a link to your post. I expect you apology any time now Aaron.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8275231&t=7184833
eel, if that is the post that you were replying to, then why did you quote and reply to my post which I cited above? That makes absolutely no sense???
When you said in the gun thread that you thought I supported the gun being at fault, although it was never in writing anywhere, you apparently think words don't mean what they say. In this thread, words always mean exactly literally what they say and we are not allowed to think differently. In the gun thread, everything that is said in that thread is used to formulate our subsequent responses. In this thread, we are only allowed to respond to the very last thing said and must complete ignore all comments up to that point? Do you just make up a rule set at random for each political discussion you enter?
no, you can reply to whatever you want....you chose to reply to my post (and quote it directly) where I said "potentially fatal".
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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TheBliver Dec 13 2012, 11:00 AM Post #703
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"If anyone on here can't admit that brum was in the wrong here and should retract his statement, you truly can't get past your hatred for me to get to a place where reasonable discussion is possible."

You're far from reasonable, more like a pompous arrogant ass!

Why do you feel like you have to discuss, if that's what you want to call it, this case as if you're a lawyer in the OHB courtroom? Why don't you just say something on the level of what's right or wrong, just one fucking time? You can express some emotion once in a while, but I forgot, you're nothing more than a gun apologist.
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dreachon Dec 13 2012, 11:01 AM Post #704
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Dec 13 2012, 10:15 AM
Now we're getting somewhere rational. Neither of us know if Martin would have continued beating Zimmerman to death. I'm a little more sensitive to that because I know someone (2nd hand) who was beaten to death in a fight and it lasted less than 30 seconds, so I don't agree that it was a LONG way off as you put it. For that same reason, I think it's difficult for you or I to say when Zimmerman's response (shooting) would become appropriate vs. excessive. For me personally, the second that I feel my life is in imminent danger, lethal force is no longer excessive......and I believe the law is roughly written around that concept.

I understand what you are saying about the SYG law being applied to Martin. I think I have asked you this before and you possibly responded and I missed it, but what do you think GZ did to justify Martin's actions under SYG?
It is difficult for an outside person to determine at what point would it have been appropriate for Zimmerman to shoot Martin. I'm not convinced Zimmerman's head was being slammed into the concrete repeatedly, as you like to say. So even though it's difficult, I don't think Zimmerman had that right yet.

The only situation in which Zimmerman would gain that right is Martin came back and attacked him while Zimmerman was heading back to his truck (this is Zimmerman's story). At that point, i agree Martin becomes the aggressor and Zimmerman is allowed to defend in himself.

In any other situation, Zimmerman followed Martin in his car, then proceeded to get out of the car and chase after Martin. He never identified himself. He never said that the police were on their way. If Martin thought he was in danger, then he deserves the right to defend himself and kick the shit out of Zimmerman.
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eelbor Dec 13 2012, 11:26 AM Post #705
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Mr Gray
Dec 13 2012, 10:51 AM
no, you can reply to whatever you want....you chose to reply to my post (and quote it directly) where I said "potentially fatal".
Thanks for your permission.
So, seeing how you tried to call it both ways, do you see how someone might think after reading through the entire thread how you were going overboard on your 'fatal beatings' comment or are you going to stick with the current losing tactic of 'I never said that'? Perhaps you should also apologize to Brum.
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