|
George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
|
|
Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,520 Views)
|
|
brumdog44
|
May 21 2013, 09:41 PM
Post #766
|
The guy picked last in gym class
- Posts:
- 43,823
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #181
- Joined:
- February 20, 2008
|
I just have a problem with the reasonableness of what Zimmerman is saying. And when his is the only story to go by and it casts doubts, then I start to have issues with it.
In turns of Zimmerman's 'life being in jeopardy', I have a bigger issue in that he fired in open territory making the risk to innocent civilians even greater.
|
|
| |
|
dreachon
|
May 21 2013, 09:49 PM
Post #767
|
Creative Title Here
- Posts:
- 24,068
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #148
- Joined:
- February 10, 2008
|
- brumdog44
- May 21 2013, 09:41 PM
In turns of Zimmerman's 'life being in jeopardy', I have a bigger issue in that he fired in open territory making the risk to innocent civilians even greater. I hear what your saying, but let's say for the sake of argument that Zimmerman's life was truly in danger. Martin had a knife and was actively trying to stab Zimmerman. Can't fault him for firing his gun in an open territory. So if the jury finds that Zimmerman's use of deadly force was necessary because his life was in danger, then they can't go back and say that he shouldn't have fired his gun.
Edited by dreachon, May 21 2013, 09:52 PM.
|
|
| |
|
brumdog44
|
May 21 2013, 10:06 PM
Post #768
|
The guy picked last in gym class
- Posts:
- 43,823
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #181
- Joined:
- February 20, 2008
|
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 09:49 PM
- brumdog44
- May 21 2013, 09:41 PM
In turns of Zimmerman's 'life being in jeopardy', I have a bigger issue in that he fired in open territory making the risk to innocent civilians even greater.
I hear what your saying, but let's say for the sake of argument that Zimmerman's life was truly in danger. Martin had a knife and was actively trying to stab Zimmerman. Can't fault him for firing his gun in an open territory. So if the jury finds that Zimmerman's use of deadly force was necessary because his life was in danger, then they can't go back and say that he shouldn't have fired his gun. I'm not sure why you are talking about a knife....that is a different situation.
Let's put another twist on this....let's say that Martin saw that Zimmerman had a gun. He now is in a situation where someone was pursuing him for no good reason with a gun in tow. How could Martin's actions be anything but self defense? What if Zimmerman showed the gun and that led to Martin feeling that his life was in danger?
It's pretty hard to put the burden of proof on someone that is dead. So in this case, I think you have to examine whether Zimmerman's actions were reasonable. IMO, they were not and they made him the aggressor, not the defender. While he may have killed Martin 'in self defense', Martin's actions IMO are reasonably deemed defensive. So if an aggressor's actions lead to a situation where the person he was pursuing is killed while that person defends himself, I feel the initial aggressor is guilty.
|
|
| |
|
Mr Gray
|
May 22 2013, 06:24 AM
Post #769
|
Coach
- Posts:
- 16,503
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #26
- Joined:
- February 5, 2008
|
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:57 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 08:42 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:24 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 07:39 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 04:52 PM
I think if Zimmerman's story is true than he obviously wouldn't get convicted of 2nd degree murder and he really shouldn't. I'm still not convinced that deadly force was necessary and so I do think he'd still be convicted of some lesser charges. Not sure what those would be whether it's something like manslaughter or negligence or something.
I forget, what makes you think that deadly force wasn't necessary? Do you believe that IF Martin was on top of him hitting his head into the concrete and/or punching him while George couldn't get away, George had some other option?
I believe deadly force should only be used when it is absolutely necessary. A "him or me" type of situation. I just don't see that here. Yeah, Zimmerman may have gotten his butt whooped, but it wasn't bad enough to give him a concussion, stitches, or even a basic medical evaluation as he refused treatment. I don't think getting yer clock cleaned is reason enough to shoot and kill someone. I need to know that Zimmerman did everything in his power to NOT shoot Trayvon Martin. That is responsible gun ownership to me.
I understand what you're saying, but don't you think it's probable that once a person gets to the point of severely cut, concussed, or other such serious injuries, that it may be too late for them to be able to defend themselves?
It's possible, but I've been a fight before. I didn't think I was going to DIE. I feel like there is a very distinct point when you believe the person you are fighting will kill you. The injuries inflicted just don't seem serious enough to come to that conclusion. I mean did Zimmerman really do EVERYTHING he could to avoid shooting Martin? He didn't identify himself? He didn't give any warning? He didn't try to run away? I mean admittedly it wasn't me there so I'm merely speculating. Maybe Zimmerman really felt like his life was in imminent danger. I don't know. I just don't see it though. And keep in mind. I'm not on the jury. I don't need unequivocal proof to have an opinion. If I was a jury member the standard of proof would be much higher obviously. I'm assuming based on that principle, you don't feel that Martin should be protected under SYG laws either? It would seem that he didn't do EVERYTHING in his power to avoid beating up on Zimmerman.
I'm with brum on the idea that if he was being followed to a point where he felt his life was in danger, SYG applies to him.....I don't think he should come back and attack the follower if he had the ability to get away, but that's where everything in the story gets a little cloudy.
|
 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
|
| |
|
Mr Gray
|
May 22 2013, 06:26 AM
Post #770
|
Coach
- Posts:
- 16,503
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #26
- Joined:
- February 5, 2008
|
- brumdog44
- May 21 2013, 09:41 PM
I just have a problem with the reasonableness of what Zimmerman is saying. And when his is the only story to go by and it casts doubts, then I start to have issues with it.
In turns of Zimmerman's 'life being in jeopardy', I have a bigger issue in that he fired in open territory making the risk to innocent civilians even greater. if YOU were in a situation where firing a gun would save your life, but could potentially injure a bystander, I'm pretty sure the bystanders wouldn't even cross your mind. Self-preservation is the strongest human impulses.
|
 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
|
| |
|
dreachon
|
May 22 2013, 07:17 AM
Post #771
|
Creative Title Here
- Posts:
- 24,068
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #148
- Joined:
- February 10, 2008
|
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 06:24 AM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:57 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 08:42 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:24 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 07:39 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 04:52 PM
I think if Zimmerman's story is true than he obviously wouldn't get convicted of 2nd degree murder and he really shouldn't. I'm still not convinced that deadly force was necessary and so I do think he'd still be convicted of some lesser charges. Not sure what those would be whether it's something like manslaughter or negligence or something.
I forget, what makes you think that deadly force wasn't necessary? Do you believe that IF Martin was on top of him hitting his head into the concrete and/or punching him while George couldn't get away, George had some other option?
I believe deadly force should only be used when it is absolutely necessary. A "him or me" type of situation. I just don't see that here. Yeah, Zimmerman may have gotten his butt whooped, but it wasn't bad enough to give him a concussion, stitches, or even a basic medical evaluation as he refused treatment. I don't think getting yer clock cleaned is reason enough to shoot and kill someone. I need to know that Zimmerman did everything in his power to NOT shoot Trayvon Martin. That is responsible gun ownership to me.
I understand what you're saying, but don't you think it's probable that once a person gets to the point of severely cut, concussed, or other such serious injuries, that it may be too late for them to be able to defend themselves?
It's possible, but I've been a fight before. I didn't think I was going to DIE. I feel like there is a very distinct point when you believe the person you are fighting will kill you. The injuries inflicted just don't seem serious enough to come to that conclusion. I mean did Zimmerman really do EVERYTHING he could to avoid shooting Martin? He didn't identify himself? He didn't give any warning? He didn't try to run away? I mean admittedly it wasn't me there so I'm merely speculating. Maybe Zimmerman really felt like his life was in imminent danger. I don't know. I just don't see it though. And keep in mind. I'm not on the jury. I don't need unequivocal proof to have an opinion. If I was a jury member the standard of proof would be much higher obviously.
I'm assuming based on that principle, you don't feel that Martin should be protected under SYG laws either? It would seem that he didn't do EVERYTHING in his power to avoid beating up on Zimmerman. I'm with brum on the idea that if he was being followed to a point where he felt his life was in danger, SYG applies to him.....I don't think he should come back and attack the follower if he had the ability to get away, but that's where everything in the story gets a little cloudy. I'm not sure that makes any sense. Martin didn't kill Zimmerman. The entire point of my post is that in order to have the right to kill someone, your life needs to be in imminent danger.
|
|
| |
|
eelbor
|
May 22 2013, 07:29 AM
Post #772
|
Zen Master
- Posts:
- 10,606
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #30
- Joined:
- February 5, 2008
|
- mongo
- May 21 2013, 07:29 PM
Screw all of you, I'm sticking up for me! I got your back Mongo!
|

"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed
Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
|
| |
|
Mr Gray
|
May 22 2013, 09:40 AM
Post #773
|
Coach
- Posts:
- 16,503
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #26
- Joined:
- February 5, 2008
|
- dreachon
- May 22 2013, 07:17 AM
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 06:24 AM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:57 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 08:42 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:24 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 07:39 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 04:52 PM
I think if Zimmerman's story is true than he obviously wouldn't get convicted of 2nd degree murder and he really shouldn't. I'm still not convinced that deadly force was necessary and so I do think he'd still be convicted of some lesser charges. Not sure what those would be whether it's something like manslaughter or negligence or something.
I forget, what makes you think that deadly force wasn't necessary? Do you believe that IF Martin was on top of him hitting his head into the concrete and/or punching him while George couldn't get away, George had some other option?
I believe deadly force should only be used when it is absolutely necessary. A "him or me" type of situation. I just don't see that here. Yeah, Zimmerman may have gotten his butt whooped, but it wasn't bad enough to give him a concussion, stitches, or even a basic medical evaluation as he refused treatment. I don't think getting yer clock cleaned is reason enough to shoot and kill someone. I need to know that Zimmerman did everything in his power to NOT shoot Trayvon Martin. That is responsible gun ownership to me.
I understand what you're saying, but don't you think it's probable that once a person gets to the point of severely cut, concussed, or other such serious injuries, that it may be too late for them to be able to defend themselves?
It's possible, but I've been a fight before. I didn't think I was going to DIE. I feel like there is a very distinct point when you believe the person you are fighting will kill you. The injuries inflicted just don't seem serious enough to come to that conclusion. I mean did Zimmerman really do EVERYTHING he could to avoid shooting Martin? He didn't identify himself? He didn't give any warning? He didn't try to run away? I mean admittedly it wasn't me there so I'm merely speculating. Maybe Zimmerman really felt like his life was in imminent danger. I don't know. I just don't see it though. And keep in mind. I'm not on the jury. I don't need unequivocal proof to have an opinion. If I was a jury member the standard of proof would be much higher obviously.
I'm assuming based on that principle, you don't feel that Martin should be protected under SYG laws either? It would seem that he didn't do EVERYTHING in his power to avoid beating up on Zimmerman. I'm with brum on the idea that if he was being followed to a point where he felt his life was in danger, SYG applies to him.....I don't think he should come back and attack the follower if he had the ability to get away, but that's where everything in the story gets a little cloudy.
I'm not sure that makes any sense. Martin didn't kill Zimmerman. The entire point of my post is that in order to have the right to kill someone, your life needs to be in imminent danger. Brum's point is that if Martin felt his life was in danger by being pursued/harassed by George, then he 1st had the right to stand his ground by beating George. Yes George didn't die, but certainly could have as a result of the beating had it not stopped (see the soccer ref who died last week from 1 punch).
So if Martin was defending himself under SYG, then George couldn't also be doing so. By your reasoning, neither had the right to inflict potentially fatal defense because they hadn't done all that they could to avoid it. Correct?
|
 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
|
| |
|
dreachon
|
May 22 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #774
|
Creative Title Here
- Posts:
- 24,068
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #148
- Joined:
- February 10, 2008
|
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 09:40 AM
- dreachon
- May 22 2013, 07:17 AM
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 06:24 AM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:57 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 08:42 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 08:24 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 21 2013, 07:39 PM
- dreachon
- May 21 2013, 04:52 PM
I think if Zimmerman's story is true than he obviously wouldn't get convicted of 2nd degree murder and he really shouldn't. I'm still not convinced that deadly force was necessary and so I do think he'd still be convicted of some lesser charges. Not sure what those would be whether it's something like manslaughter or negligence or something.
I forget, what makes you think that deadly force wasn't necessary? Do you believe that IF Martin was on top of him hitting his head into the concrete and/or punching him while George couldn't get away, George had some other option?
I believe deadly force should only be used when it is absolutely necessary. A "him or me" type of situation. I just don't see that here. Yeah, Zimmerman may have gotten his butt whooped, but it wasn't bad enough to give him a concussion, stitches, or even a basic medical evaluation as he refused treatment. I don't think getting yer clock cleaned is reason enough to shoot and kill someone. I need to know that Zimmerman did everything in his power to NOT shoot Trayvon Martin. That is responsible gun ownership to me.
I understand what you're saying, but don't you think it's probable that once a person gets to the point of severely cut, concussed, or other such serious injuries, that it may be too late for them to be able to defend themselves?
It's possible, but I've been a fight before. I didn't think I was going to DIE. I feel like there is a very distinct point when you believe the person you are fighting will kill you. The injuries inflicted just don't seem serious enough to come to that conclusion. I mean did Zimmerman really do EVERYTHING he could to avoid shooting Martin? He didn't identify himself? He didn't give any warning? He didn't try to run away? I mean admittedly it wasn't me there so I'm merely speculating. Maybe Zimmerman really felt like his life was in imminent danger. I don't know. I just don't see it though. And keep in mind. I'm not on the jury. I don't need unequivocal proof to have an opinion. If I was a jury member the standard of proof would be much higher obviously.
I'm assuming based on that principle, you don't feel that Martin should be protected under SYG laws either? It would seem that he didn't do EVERYTHING in his power to avoid beating up on Zimmerman. I'm with brum on the idea that if he was being followed to a point where he felt his life was in danger, SYG applies to him.....I don't think he should come back and attack the follower if he had the ability to get away, but that's where everything in the story gets a little cloudy.
I'm not sure that makes any sense. Martin didn't kill Zimmerman. The entire point of my post is that in order to have the right to kill someone, your life needs to be in imminent danger.
Brum's point is that if Martin felt his life was in danger by being pursued/harassed by George, then he 1st had the right to stand his ground by beating George. Yes George didn't die, but certainly could have as a result of the beating had it not stopped (see the soccer ref who died last week from 1 punch). So if Martin was defending himself under SYG, then George couldn't also be doing so. By your reasoning, neither had the right to inflict potentially fatal defense because they hadn't done all that they could to avoid it. Correct? My post wasn't in response to Brum's. But no, I don't think Martin should have used deadly force in his self defense unless he felt his life was imminently in danger. Stand your ground says you can defend yourself without running. I don't have a problem with the law, but I personally believe people should do everything they can to avoid having to use deadly force. I don't believe the law says you can use deadly force as a response to any physical confrontation. I worry about that precedent being set here.
|
|
| |
|
brumdog44
|
May 22 2013, 03:29 PM
Post #775
|
The guy picked last in gym class
- Posts:
- 43,823
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #181
- Joined:
- February 20, 2008
|
The bottom line IMO is that it all comes down to who you feel is the aggressor. While it is my position that I don't think either's life was truly in danger until the introduction of the gun shot, I can conceive that both may have felt that there life was in danger. From Martin's standpoint -- at least from what we know since we can't get his first hand account -- he was being pursued by someone for no reason and it was obvious from the phone conversation with the police that it was not some casual pursuit. If Zimmerman is telling the truth, he God's honest truth, then he felt his life was in danger.
So it is going to rest on Zimmerman's character and piecemeal accounts of the situation. We do need to keep in mind that Zimmerman has hurt his character once already with the original setting of bail.
What will be interesting is whether the defense will put Zimmerman on the stand. My expectation is that unless things are going very, very poorly, they will not. The burden of proof will be on the prosecution and unless they feel they need to present Zimmerman's side, they won't do it.
|
|
| |
|
brumdog44
|
May 22 2013, 03:35 PM
Post #776
|
The guy picked last in gym class
- Posts:
- 43,823
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #181
- Joined:
- February 20, 2008
|
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 09:40 AM
Yes George didn't die, but certainly could have as a result of the beating had it not stopped (see the soccer ref who died last week from 1 punch).
This is the thing, though: if at what point does the victim need to stop? My assumption would be that he would need to stop at the point in which he can reasonably feel that his life was no longer in danger. We'll never know if or when that occurred here.
Side question: do you feel that it makes a difference as to when he should be expected to stop if Martin saw the gun during the confrontation? I have to say that if that happened, the fear for his own life would be even greater and that he could only feel truly safe if Zimmerman had been completely disarmed, knocked out, or dead. We are talking about someone who pursued him with vigor for a completely unknown reason.
|
|
| |
|
Mr Gray
|
May 22 2013, 04:22 PM
Post #777
|
Coach
- Posts:
- 16,503
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #26
- Joined:
- February 5, 2008
|
- brumdog44
- May 22 2013, 03:35 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 09:40 AM
Yes George didn't die, but certainly could have as a result of the beating had it not stopped (see the soccer ref who died last week from 1 punch).
This is the thing, though: if at what point does the victim need to stop? My assumption would be that he would need to stop at the point in which he can reasonably feel that his life was no longer in danger. We'll never know if or when that occurred here. Side question: do you feel that it makes a difference as to when he should be expected to stop if Martin saw the gun during the confrontation? I have to say that if that happened, the fear for his own life would be even greater and that he could only feel truly safe if Zimmerman had been completely disarmed, knocked out, or dead. We are talking about someone who pursued him with vigor for a completely unknown reason. I agree completely. The big "if" on that is whether or not Martin. Was safely away from harm and chose to come back and instigate a physical confrontation. That is George's story and I'm certain the defense will paint that picture.
If my son is being attacked by someone and in that confrontation he realizes that the attacker has a gun, I want him to beat him until he is at least unconscious. If he dies he dies. (What movie is that quote from?)
|
 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
|
| |
|
dreachon
|
May 22 2013, 06:06 PM
Post #778
|
Creative Title Here
- Posts:
- 24,068
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #148
- Joined:
- February 10, 2008
|
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 04:22 PM
- brumdog44
- May 22 2013, 03:35 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 09:40 AM
Yes George didn't die, but certainly could have as a result of the beating had it not stopped (see the soccer ref who died last week from 1 punch).
This is the thing, though: if at what point does the victim need to stop? My assumption would be that he would need to stop at the point in which he can reasonably feel that his life was no longer in danger. We'll never know if or when that occurred here. Side question: do you feel that it makes a difference as to when he should be expected to stop if Martin saw the gun during the confrontation? I have to say that if that happened, the fear for his own life would be even greater and that he could only feel truly safe if Zimmerman had been completely disarmed, knocked out, or dead. We are talking about someone who pursued him with vigor for a completely unknown reason.
I agree completely. The big "if" on that is whether or not Martin. Was safely away from harm and chose to come back and instigate a physical confrontation. That is George's story and I'm certain the defense will paint that picture. If my son is being attacked by someone and in that confrontation he realizes that the attacker has a gun, I want him to beat him until he is at least unconscious. If he dies he dies. (What movie is that quote from?) Rocky IV, Ivan Drago
[utube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDgcc5Sif3k[/utube]
|
|
| |
|
dreachon
|
May 22 2013, 06:08 PM
Post #779
|
Creative Title Here
- Posts:
- 24,068
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #148
- Joined:
- February 10, 2008
|
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 04:22 PM
- brumdog44
- May 22 2013, 03:35 PM
- Mr Gray
- May 22 2013, 09:40 AM
Yes George didn't die, but certainly could have as a result of the beating had it not stopped (see the soccer ref who died last week from 1 punch).
This is the thing, though: if at what point does the victim need to stop? My assumption would be that he would need to stop at the point in which he can reasonably feel that his life was no longer in danger. We'll never know if or when that occurred here. Side question: do you feel that it makes a difference as to when he should be expected to stop if Martin saw the gun during the confrontation? I have to say that if that happened, the fear for his own life would be even greater and that he could only feel truly safe if Zimmerman had been completely disarmed, knocked out, or dead. We are talking about someone who pursued him with vigor for a completely unknown reason.
I agree completely. The big "if" on that is whether or not Martin. Was safely away from harm and chose to come back and instigate a physical confrontation. That is George's story and I'm certain the defense will paint that picture. If my son is being attacked by someone and in that confrontation he realizes that the attacker has a gun, I want him to beat him until he is at least unconscious. If he dies he dies. (What movie is that quote from?) Brum's point is a good one so even though I said I don't think martin should have used deadly force either, I guess I can see the situation where he could. It really is a split hair difference here and I think that's why we can all agree on the potential circumstances and still come to opposite conclusions.
|
|
| |
|
BTown11
|
May 23 2013, 01:42 PM
Post #780
|
Mer
- Posts:
- 20,765
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #19
- Joined:
- February 4, 2008
|
I think Mr. Gray might be George Zimmerman..
it's the only explanation.
|
|
Death to Signatures.
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|