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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,512 Views)
brumdog44 Jun 28 2013, 07:49 PM Post #886
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The NSA could settle the whole damn thing by putting the video up.
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brumdog44 Jun 28 2013, 07:58 PM Post #887
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BTW, we do know that Zimmerman had profiled Martin in that he did say 'fucking punks, they always get away'. Again, profiling does not have to be necessarily racial....it is using a preconceived notion based on looks or actions that are not necessarily connected with preconceived thoughts.
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dreachon Jun 28 2013, 08:11 PM Post #888
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Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 06:33 PM
I'll try to clarify again. Yes or no, if someone is on top of someone else punching and or slamming their head into the ground, is the person on bottom's life potentially in danger?
Sorry aaron, but I'm not going to let you conveniently get out of this one. You said I said something. Back it up. I'll answer your question after you either find the link where I said having your head slammed into concrete isn't potentially fatal, or admit that you just made that shit up.
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Mr Gray Jun 28 2013, 11:13 PM Post #889
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brumdog44
Jun 28 2013, 07:58 PM
BTW, we do know that Zimmerman had profiled Martin in that he did say 'fucking punks, they always get away'. Again, profiling does not have to be necessarily racial....it is using a preconceived notion based on looks or actions that are not necessarily connected with preconceived thoughts.
Yes, but I was referring to racial profiling based upon early comments from dreach a d others that this was a racially motivated crime by GZ.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jun 28 2013, 11:15 PM Post #890
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Jun 28 2013, 08:11 PM
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Jun 28 2013, 06:33 PM
I'll try to clarify again. Yes or no, if someone is on top of someone else punching and or slamming their head into the ground, is the person on bottom's life potentially in danger?
Sorry aaron, but I'm not going to let you conveniently get out of this one. You said I said something. Back it up. I'll answer your question after you either find the link where I said having your head slammed into concrete isn't potentially fatal, or admit that you just made that shit up.
Dreach, I can't go through 60 pages of comments on my phone to find it, and on top of that, we are missing a lot of pages from when multiple threads were combined. You talked about just taking an ass whooping and it not being fatal...etc. the fact that you won't answer a simple yes or no question is telling me that you know I'm right.

I also did provide quotes from you were you clearly insinuated that GZ's life wasn't in danger while being beaten by TM.
Edited by Mr Gray, Jun 28 2013, 11:18 PM.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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IUCOLTFAN Jun 29 2013, 06:37 AM Post #891
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dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 06:00 PM
There is evidence for racial profiling in this case when Zimmerman admitted that the neighborhood had been vandalized recently several times by black men. So part of him finding martin suspicious was that he was a black man.
Didn't GZ's original 911 call (the one NBC tried to doctor) have him saying that he didn't know what race the person (Martin) was?

Either way, I agree that racial profiling is wrong but it is not murder. You seem to be longing to get a man convicted of murder because he may or may not be profiling.....that's a huge leap.
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IUCOLTFAN Jun 29 2013, 06:41 AM Post #892
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brumdog44
Jun 28 2013, 04:45 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 03:34 PM
brumdog44
Jun 28 2013, 03:07 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 02:40 PM
dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 01:48 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 12:54 PM
There were several people on here who early on said that GZ was a racist who profiled TM because he was black and attacked him accordingly. Now that the girlfriend has stated that TM was a racist, I wonder if people will assume that he attacked GZ because he was a cracker.
If you don't think Zimmerman profiled Martin, you are kidding yourself.
wow....you have absolutely no evidence of that, yet you are sure. Unbelievable how much you go along with the ignorant mentality that actions by whites (or half whites/hispanics in this case) is racial. Sad actually.
Screw your holier than thou mentality and your inability to actually read what I posted. Funny how you conveniently lump whites with Hispanic individuals as well....as if you feel that I only think that black individuals could be profiled.

My statement was that Zimmerman profiled him because of something....could be skin color, could be how he was dressed, but it had to be something or HE DOES'T CALL THE POLICE NOR PURSUE HIM. He did not see him committing a crime...varying an exposed weapon....so he to be profiling him based on something. What is pathetic is that when I say it had to be something that made him profile him as a criminal and offer one possibility that it could be his skin color, you shudder at that notion that skin color could even *gasp* be a possibility.

Zimmerman's gut feeling was tha Martin was up to no good. But that was not based on actual observed illegal actions that Martin did....therefore, he had to profile him as being a criminal based on something or a combination of things. But indicated that one of those things COULD be racial makes me ignorant? Really? Are you willing to say that it absolutely was not? If not, get off my back for saying it could be instead of accusing me of saying that it was.
I have seen no evidence that he was carrying an "exposed weapon" nor have I seen any evidence of racial profiling. We do, however, have evidence of Martin's racism.
First, in terms of the post that you asked if it w,as dreach's or mine, that was mine because I misread who your reply was to.

Martin's racism has nothing to do with him committing a crime. We do have evidence of him being pursued for no reason.
Following someone "for no reason" is not a crime as far as I know. It definitely is not the same as murder.
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IUCOLTFAN Jun 29 2013, 06:46 AM Post #893
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Jun 28 2013, 06:47 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 06:24 PM
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Jun 28 2013, 06:11 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 05:01 PM
I don't recall you aiming that zimmermans actions were motivated by racism. Dreach did in the beginning.

If racism can be used as a motivation for GZs actions, why not Martins?
As you said, I didn't aim at Zimmerman's actions as being motivated by racism. Could they be? Absolutely. But to me that isn't the issue.

Regardless of why he pursued Martin at the beginning, he did it because he profiled him as a criminal (we can get into semenatics -- 'a potential criminal threat', etc, but that's also not the issue).

But what was Martin's initial response to the fight or flight situation? It was evasion. So if it were simply a case of racially motivated aggression, it sure does not make sense that Martin would look to get out of a potential confrontation.

It also simply does not make sense to me that Zimmerman's version follows logic....Martin evaded and then after Zimmerman stopped following and turned around to go back, Martin confronted him. So one would have to believe that someone -- after successfully evaded pursuit -- would THEN choose to initiate confrontation?

And if we are going to examine state of mind -- i.e., Martin making a racial comment -- then we sure as heck have to look at the 9-1-1 history of Zimmerman calls in that he most certainly have to assume that Zimmerman had a very documented history of misinterpreting actual threats and it would certainly raise doubts as to his assertion that his life was in danger as well as his assertion that he was not the aggressor.
For the record, Martin technically was a criminal, so GZ did profile him in that regard correctly.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for Martin to evade and then come back to fight. I can't really make sense of the physical confrontation at all. There is no way that GZ actually caught TM on foot to start a fight either. I can come up with reasons that TM would run and then come back to fight, but they are thin speculation and don't really help this discussion.
I think TM was initially scared when he saw GZ, but after further thought, believed he could kick his ass. Either that or he got somewhat confused in a new area, and accidentally came back upon GZ, and the fight ensued.
Which I'm sure looked pretty "hard" and courageous in his mind as he may have been trying to look tough for the illiterate girl on the other end of the phone. Of course that is far fetched because teenage boys rarely do anything that they think will impress a woman....
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obatskii Jun 29 2013, 07:08 AM Post #894
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Jun 29 2013, 06:46 AM
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Jun 28 2013, 06:47 PM
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Jun 28 2013, 06:24 PM
brumdog44
Jun 28 2013, 06:11 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 05:01 PM
I don't recall you aiming that zimmermans actions were motivated by racism. Dreach did in the beginning.

If racism can be used as a motivation for GZs actions, why not Martins?
As you said, I didn't aim at Zimmerman's actions as being motivated by racism. Could they be? Absolutely. But to me that isn't the issue.

Regardless of why he pursued Martin at the beginning, he did it because he profiled him as a criminal (we can get into semenatics -- 'a potential criminal threat', etc, but that's also not the issue).

But what was Martin's initial response to the fight or flight situation? It was evasion. So if it were simply a case of racially motivated aggression, it sure does not make sense that Martin would look to get out of a potential confrontation.

It also simply does not make sense to me that Zimmerman's version follows logic....Martin evaded and then after Zimmerman stopped following and turned around to go back, Martin confronted him. So one would have to believe that someone -- after successfully evaded pursuit -- would THEN choose to initiate confrontation?

And if we are going to examine state of mind -- i.e., Martin making a racial comment -- then we sure as heck have to look at the 9-1-1 history of Zimmerman calls in that he most certainly have to assume that Zimmerman had a very documented history of misinterpreting actual threats and it would certainly raise doubts as to his assertion that his life was in danger as well as his assertion that he was not the aggressor.
For the record, Martin technically was a criminal, so GZ did profile him in that regard correctly.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for Martin to evade and then come back to fight. I can't really make sense of the physical confrontation at all. There is no way that GZ actually caught TM on foot to start a fight either. I can come up with reasons that TM would run and then come back to fight, but they are thin speculation and don't really help this discussion.
I think TM was initially scared when he saw GZ, but after further thought, believed he could kick his ass. Either that or he got somewhat confused in a new area, and accidentally came back upon GZ, and the fight ensued.
Which I'm sure looked pretty "hard" and courageous in his mind as he may have been trying to look tough for the illiterate girl on the other end of the phone. Of course that is far fetched because teenage boys rarely do anything that they think will impress a woman....
You really have to question TM's mental faculties if he was trying to impress her...
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 07:53 AM Post #895
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Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 11:15 PM
dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 08:11 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 06:33 PM
I'll try to clarify again. Yes or no, if someone is on top of someone else punching and or slamming their head into the ground, is the person on bottom's life potentially in danger?
Sorry aaron, but I'm not going to let you conveniently get out of this one. You said I said something. Back it up. I'll answer your question after you either find the link where I said having your head slammed into concrete isn't potentially fatal, or admit that you just made that shit up.
Dreach, I can't go through 60 pages of comments on my phone to find it, and on top of that, we are missing a lot of pages from when multiple threads were combined. You talked about just taking an ass whooping and it not being fatal...etc. the fact that you won't answer a simple yes or no question is telling me that you know I'm right.

I also did provide quotes from you were you clearly insinuated that GZ's life wasn't in danger while being beaten by TM.
Ya know aaron, I wouldn't have expected this from you. I know there have been times when I accidentally misrepresented your opinion, you've called me out on it and I have apologized. You completely made something up and are now fiercely defending your position without a single quote from me even inkling what you said was true. To try and help win your argument you ask me a question while sneakily throwing in "punching and/or slamming". I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed. And for the record, posts don't get lost when threads are combined. They just get put in date order.

Your original quote that started this entire argument:
Quote:
 
dreach has explained that getting your head slammed into the ground isn't life threatening.


Completely false and I have never indicated otherwise. Mostly because someone having their head slammed into the ground is obviously life threatening. However, what I have indicated in regards to the concrete and Zimmerman's injuries has been stated in this thread several times over.

Quote:
 
I believe deadly force should only be used when it is absolutely necessary. A "him or me" type of situation. I just don't see that here. Yeah, Zimmerman may have gotten his butt whooped, but it wasn't bad enough to give him a concussion, stitches, or even a basic medical evaluation as he refused treatment. I don't think getting yer clock cleaned is reason enough to shoot and kill someone. I need to know that Zimmerman did everything in his power to NOT shoot Trayvon Martin. That is responsible gun ownership to me.


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If Martin was pummeling him and slamming his head into a curb (I still haven't seen this anywhere, please link) then I would expect Zimmerman to have significant injuries. Not only did Zimmerman not have a concussion, but he didn't even need stitches. 2 scrapes on the back of his head does not equal a life threatening situation.


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The head bleeds a lot, no doubt, but he still needed zero stitches. That's a scratch. The reason having your head slammed into the ground is life threatening is because of the immense damage it can cause. No concussion. No stitches. No medical attention. Hard for me to believe his head was being slammed into the ground.

So what else could cause scratches on the back of the head? Well, if Zimmerman was fighting someone on concrete and he was on his back, I would expect his head would get scratched up.


The quotes of mine that you posted earlier indicate that I didn't feel Zimmerman's life was in imminent danger. That's because I don't believe his head was being slammed into the concrete. NOT because I believe having your had slammed into concrete isn't life threatening.

Now, you've thrown the question of being punched in there even though that wasn't part of the original discussion. I do believe a punch can be deadly. Not just from the punch itself, but if someone falls and hits their head on the ground or some other object, that can be incredibly damaging. That said, I also acknowledge the extreme rarity of people dying from a punch. It's because of this extreme rarity that punching someone is not considered to be using "deadly force." That's why we have assault charges. Otherwise, everyone sued for punching someone would be charged with attempted murder.

Furthermore, the entire discussion over whether Zimmerman's life was actually in danger or not is pretty moot point to me, because as I have also stated several times in this thread, I think the Stand Your Ground law applied to Martin and gave him the right to defend himself.
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 07:59 AM Post #896
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Jun 29 2013, 06:37 AM
dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 06:00 PM
There is evidence for racial profiling in this case when Zimmerman admitted that the neighborhood had been vandalized recently several times by black men. So part of him finding martin suspicious was that he was a black man.
Didn't GZ's original 911 call (the one NBC tried to doctor) have him saying that he didn't know what race the person (Martin) was?

Either way, I agree that racial profiling is wrong but it is not murder. You seem to be longing to get a man convicted of murder because he may or may not be profiling.....that's a huge leap.
I'd have to check. You could be right.

I don't want convict GZ for possible racial profiling. I want to convict him for chasing after and shooting an unarmed teenager. I believe profiling was involved and it's important to discuss because a lesson can be learned here about the dangers of profiling.
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 08:02 AM Post #897
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Jun 29 2013, 07:59 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 06:37 AM
dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 06:00 PM
There is evidence for racial profiling in this case when Zimmerman admitted that the neighborhood had been vandalized recently several times by black men. So part of him finding martin suspicious was that he was a black man.
Didn't GZ's original 911 call (the one NBC tried to doctor) have him saying that he didn't know what race the person (Martin) was?

Either way, I agree that racial profiling is wrong but it is not murder. You seem to be longing to get a man convicted of murder because he may or may not be profiling.....that's a huge leap.
I'd have to check. You could be right.

I don't want convict GZ for possible racial profiling. I want to convict him for chasing after and shooting an unarmed teenager. I believe profiling was involved and it's important to discuss because a lesson can be learned here about the dangers of profiling.
Transcript from the 911 call shows Zimmerman did know Martin was black.

Zimmerman
Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher
OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman
He looks black.
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brumdog44 Jun 29 2013, 08:25 AM Post #898
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Jun 29 2013, 06:46 AM
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Jun 28 2013, 06:24 PM
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Jun 28 2013, 06:11 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 05:01 PM
I don't recall you aiming that zimmermans actions were motivated by racism. Dreach did in the beginning.

If racism can be used as a motivation for GZs actions, why not Martins?
As you said, I didn't aim at Zimmerman's actions as being motivated by racism. Could they be? Absolutely. But to me that isn't the issue.

Regardless of why he pursued Martin at the beginning, he did it because he profiled him as a criminal (we can get into semenatics -- 'a potential criminal threat', etc, but that's also not the issue).

But what was Martin's initial response to the fight or flight situation? It was evasion. So if it were simply a case of racially motivated aggression, it sure does not make sense that Martin would look to get out of a potential confrontation.

It also simply does not make sense to me that Zimmerman's version follows logic....Martin evaded and then after Zimmerman stopped following and turned around to go back, Martin confronted him. So one would have to believe that someone -- after successfully evaded pursuit -- would THEN choose to initiate confrontation?

And if we are going to examine state of mind -- i.e., Martin making a racial comment -- then we sure as heck have to look at the 9-1-1 history of Zimmerman calls in that he most certainly have to assume that Zimmerman had a very documented history of misinterpreting actual threats and it would certainly raise doubts as to his assertion that his life was in danger as well as his assertion that he was not the aggressor.
For the record, Martin technically was a criminal, so GZ did profile him in that regard correctly.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for Martin to evade and then come back to fight. I can't really make sense of the physical confrontation at all. There is no way that GZ actually caught TM on foot to start a fight either. I can come up with reasons that TM would run and then come back to fight, but they are thin speculation and don't really help this discussion.
I think TM was initially scared when he saw GZ, but after further thought, believed he could kick his ass. Either that or he got somewhat confused in a new area, and accidentally came back upon GZ, and the fight ensued.
Which I'm sure looked pretty "hard" and courageous in his mind as he may have been trying to look tough for the illiterate girl on the other end of the phone. Of course that is far fetched because teenage boys rarely do anything that they think will impress a woman....
And you accuse others of using conjecture...Jesus...
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brumdog44 Jun 29 2013, 08:28 AM Post #899
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IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 06:41 AM
Following someone "for no reason" is not a crime as far as I know. It definitely is not the same as murder.
How about 'walking around, looking about'? What crime is that? Apparently that warrants a 9-1-1 call.

As I have said from the beginning, the biggest problem I have is that I don't trust GZ's interpretation on the events because of his interpretation of other things we have knowledge of.
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boilergrad01 Jun 29 2013, 08:51 AM Post #900
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What is GZ actually charged with 2nd degree murder correct? Can the jury actually convict him of a lessor crime?

This case is mind blowing to me and has been manipulated in the media.
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